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Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method



Hi Jon,

Overall, I think we are all in sync.  I need to make time to review your
document and provide comments on how to generalize it.  We do have time,
so I'm not rushing the process, but I hope to have a draft document
(based on your work) for the July Plenary.

Mat


Matthew Sherman, Ph.D. 
Engineering Fellow 
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S) 
Office: +1 973.633.6344 
Cell: +1 973.229.9520 
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com


-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jon Rosdahl
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:36 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures
for IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method

HI David,
  I am not opposed to your suggestions, nor am I asserting that each
group 
had to duplicate the effort.  I also agree that by having the document
only 
point/reference up, that this could become the only 802 WG P&P, and each
WG 
would then suplement it with their own nuances that they wish to deal
with.

I would say that the 802 Operations manual should not include anything
that 
is in the 802 WG P&P....so it seems that we are agreeing on most points.

CHanging the draft that I posted can be changed fairly easily (IMHO) to
a 
non WG specific draft with only "up references".  As this was built on
the 
AudCom Baseline, with hidden text revealed, you can see the instructions

from AudCom to be able to decern the "thou shalt not change" paragraphs
from 
those that can be changed.

So all in All, it is at least my assertion and apparently your agreement

that we have a good start, but a bit of more focus on genericizing the
P&P 
will leave us with one that all the WG can base their own OP Man on.

The next steps would be to have Matthew chime in as to where he wants to

start and how to proceed?

Do you agree?
Jon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Law" <David_Law@3COM.COM>
To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures
for 
IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method


> Hi Jon,
>
> While IEEE 802.11 has had a P&P for along time - and actually they
were
> modelled after the IEEE 802.3 rules which we've had for even longer -
I
> think that both these documents are actually Working Group 'Operations
> Manual' in todays terminology as they both point extensively to the
IEEE
> 802 rules for the fundamental operation of the Working Group on issues
> such as membership and balloting.
>
> Based on this I think there should be only one IEEE 802 LMSC Working
Group
> P&P that we all follow - as we have today - all of which was moved to
the
> IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual. Each working group is then free - if
they
> wish - to develop its own Operations Manual to supplement the new IEEE
802
> LMSC Working Group P&P. I believe that a Working Group operations
manual
> would be near equivalent to what we call the Working Group P&P today.
>
> By this approach we have to move the Working Group rules out of the
IEEE
> 802 LMSC Operations Manual into a single Working group P&P - which I
> believe we have to do to meet the AudCom requirements for a Working
Group
> P&P - and then for those Working Groups that have P&Ps move these to
be
> the Working Group Operations manual. If we take the approach of
developing
> a Working Group P&P for each Working Group there seems to be quite a
lot
> of duplication of effort - rather than just one single P&P that we all
> follow.
>
> In respect to the discussion I mentioned I believe that took place at
the
> opening EC meeting on Monday in March, this is recorded in the
unapproved
> minutes as 'Law said that the LMSC rules state that there should be
> generic WG rules that are then added to it by the WGs. Rigsbee
suggests
> that we pick out key people to work on a base WG P&P and individual
WGs
> can override as appropriate.' not that I particularly agree with a WG
> being able to override the base P&P.
>
> As for the draft you have supplied it is indeed a great start to the
work
> that Mat has to do and I am most certainly in support of using it as
the
> basis of the work. In respect to specific comments I would like to see
[a]
> the draft changed to be the 'All IEEE 802 Working Group P&P' draft,
not
> Working group specific, [b] I would like to see all the references in
to
> the IEEE 802 operations manual replaced with the actual text from the
IEEE
> 802 operations manual and a change to the IEEE 802 operations manual
to
> delete the same text and [c] all reference to Working Group Operations
> manual removed and replaced with a single statement that Working
Groups
> can supplement these P&P with their own Working Group specific
Operations
> Manual.
>
> Taking the membership clause in the current draft - it states that the
> rules can be found in the IEEE 802 operations manual - and
supplemental
> rules found in the IEEE 802.11 Operations manual. This makes the
Working
> Group P&P somewhat content free as all it does is points up and point
> down. Instead making this the 'All IEEE 802 Working Groups P&P' would
> allow us to remove the membership content from the IEEE 802 operations
> manual and place it in the this draft.
>
> Hope this makes some sense.
>
> Best regards,
>  David
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jon Rosdahl" <jrosdahl@ieee.org> wrote on 06/04/2009 15:28:37:
>
>> Hi David,
>>    802.11 has had a P&P document for a long time.  As I understand
it,
> the
>> AudCom Baseline was to be used by Working Groups to base their P&P
on.
>> I have taken the .11 P&P and the baseline from AudCom and created the
>> baseline that has been posted.
>>
>> As for the "approach discussed in March"....I will have to ask where
> that
>> was discussed.  I have been in all the "rules Adhoc meetings" and it
was
> not
>> a direction counter to what I have taken.  I have also provided what
I
> have
>> completed as a possible jump start for what Matthew will eventually
have
> to
>> provide for the EC to approve.  Whether we have what I have crafted
as
> the
>> baseline for all, or some derivative is yet to be seen.  AS it is
based
> on
>> the AudCom requirement, I beleive it to be very close to what all
will
>> eventually get to review.
>>
>> I am happy for susggested changes/improvement/critics on what has
been
>> submitted.  I believe that as it did start from the AudCom baseline
that
> has
>> been mandated from AudCom, it will be very close to what the final
will
> be.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jon
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Law" <David_Law@3COM.COM>
>> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 3:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating
Procedures
> for
>> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>>
>>
>> > Hi Jon,
>> >
>> > As it stands today most of the Working Group rules - membership and
>> > balloting are two main examples - are contained in the IEEE 802
> Operations
>> > Manual - and some Working Groups chose to supplement them with
their
> own
>> > set of rules - however the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802
> Operations
>> > Manual take precedence.
>> >
>> > I believe that the approach discussed in March - which I totally
> support -
>> > was that these Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 Operations
Manual
> will
>> > be split out into a single IEEE 802 Working Group P&P that will
meet
> the
>> > requirements of the AudCom Working Group model P&P. This IEEE 802
> Working
>> > Group P&P will then be used by all Working Groups. The Working
Group
> can
>> > then chose to supplement these by a Working Groups operations
manual -
> but
>> > does not have to.
>> >
>> > I believe that this approach preserves the situation we have today
> where
>> > this is one base set of Working Group rules within IEEE 802 and a
> Working
>> > Group doesn't need to take any action if it is happy to follow
these.
> If
>> > they wish to supplement them with a Working Groups operations
manual
> they
>> > can do so but the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 level will
take
>> > precedence.
>> >
>> > This approach also keeps the Working Group P&P review workload low
for
> the
>> > EC - as there will be just one set of IEEE 802 Working Group P&P to
> review
>> > instead on one from each Working Group. It also reduces the risk if
we
> do
>> > have an AudCom audit as we only need to make sure one set of rules
is
> in
>> > conformance with the AudCom model P&P.
>> >
>> > On review of the draft IEEE 802.11 P&P in your email below these
seem
> to
>> > be
>> > based on the AudCom P&P and therefore doesn't follow the approach I
>> > described above. I wonder therefore if I have misunderstood what is
> being
>> > proposed.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >  David
>> >
>> >
>> > ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
<STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org>
>> > wrote
>> > on 01/04/2009 20:20:28:
>> >
>> >> Hi Matthew,
>> >>   In an effor to be proactive and get started on this process,
802.11
> has
>> >
>> >> the following starting point:
>> >> https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/09/11-09-0001-00-0000-802-11-
>> >> policies-procedures.doc
>> >>
>> >> We hope to have our final version ready for approval of the EC at
the
>> > July
>> >> Plenary.
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Jon
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)"
<matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM>
>> >> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:12 AM
>> >> Subject: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating
Procedures
> for
>> >> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Fellow EC Members:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So the fun begins!  Please see the notice below concerning WG P&P.
> Some
>> >> groups are further ahead than others in addressing this emerging
> issue.
>> >> I plan to start some discussion on the EC reflector this weekend
on a
>> >> path forward.  Right now I favor using the Baseline WG P&P and a
> base,
>> >> breaking our WG P&P rules out of the LMSC OM (now enforce), and
>> >> augmenting the Baseline WG P&P with the material from the OM where
it
>> >> does not conflict.  This would then become a global WG P&P for all
> IEEE
>> >> 802 WG, and it would be up to WG if they want to have an WG OM to
>> >> specify additional rules (or not).  By the way, this is probably a
> good
>> >> time to revisit how WG operate within IEEE 802 and consider any
>> >> revisions we would like.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am willing to host teleconferences roughly monthly (consider
this
>> >> tentative notice for teleconferences at 11 AM EDT on 5/1, 5/29,
and
>> >> 6/26) to discuss WG P&P issue. I don't think we need anything more
>> >> intense that that, and plan to conduct most of the dialogue on the
> LMSC
>> >> reflector, and at the July Plenary as to a path forward.  If it
> becomes
>> >> too much of a burden on the LMSC reflector, I will break it out as
a
>> >> private discussion group (with notice to the reflector so anyone
can
>> >> participate) and periodically report to the reflector on recent
>> >> dialogue.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please feel free to comment on these plans.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mat
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
>> >> Engineering Fellow
>> >> BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
>> >> Office: +1 973.633.6344
>> >> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
>> >> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >>
>> >> From: Yacone, Lisa [mailto:L.Yacone@ieee.org]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:41 AM
>> >> To: STDS-WG-CHAIRS@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> >> Subject: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE
>> >> Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The "Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working
Groups
> -
>> >> Individual Method" (WG P&Ps) were approved by the IEEE SA
Standards
>> >> Board on 29 January 2009 and become effective 31 March 2009.  All
>> >> working groups shall update their P&Ps to conform to this baseline
>> >> document.  The IEEE-SA requires that these procedures (Baseline
>> >> Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups
>> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/WG_PandP.doc> ) be adopted
> intact,
>> >> with modifications of some clauses allowed as indicated.
>> >>
>> >> Sponsors are expected to ensure that their working groups have
P&Ps
> and
>> >> that these P&Ps conform to the Baseline WG P&Ps.  The Sponsor has
the
>> >> option of developing one set of P&Ps for all of its working
groups.
>> >> Working groups should check with their sponsor chair/standards
>> >> coordinator to confirm how to proceed before beginning this update
of
>> >> their P&Ps.
>> >>
>> >> The current active WG P&Ps shall be located on the Sponsor's web
site
>> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/index.html> .  It is the
>> >> responsibility of the Sponsor (see the IEEE-SA Standards Board
>> >> Operations Manual, subclause 5.1.2
>> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/guides/opman/sect5.html/l5.1.2> .) to
> approve
>> >> the policies and procedures of its working groups involved in the
>> >> technical development work of a standard.
>> >>
>> >> The IEEE SA Standards Board's Audit Committee (AudCom) may request
at
>> >> any time to review one of a Sponsor's WG P&Ps and will as a matter
of
>> >> routine begin randomly auditing these procedures beginning in June
> 2010.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If you have any questions regarding implementation of the Baseline
WG
>> >> P&Ps, please contact the AudCom Chair Ron Petersen at
>> >> r.c.petersen@ieee.org <mailto:r.c.petersen@ieee.org>  or the
AudCom
>> >> Administrator Lisa Yacone at l.yacone@ieee.org
>> >> <mailto:l.yacone@ieee.org> .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ****************************************************
>> >> Lisa Yacone
>> >> IEEE SA Governance
>> >> NesCom Administrator
>> >> AudCom Administrator
>> >> Ph: +1 732 562 6003
>> >> ****************************************************
>> >> IEEE: Fostering technological innovation and excellence for the
> benefit
>> >> of humanity.
>> >>
>> >> Celebrating 125 Years of Engineering the Future. www.ieee125.org
>> >> ****************************************************
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------
>> >> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
reflector.
>> > This
>> >> list is maintained by Listserv.
>> >>
>> >> ----------
>> >> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
reflector.
>> >> This list is maintained by Listserv.
>> >
>> > ----------
>> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
reflector.
> This
>> > list is maintained by Listserv.
>>
>
> ----------
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This 
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