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Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] [EXTERNAL] Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

Rubayet,
              thanks for the suggestion. I don't think this additional sentence is necessary, as I think my current definition of EMLSR already accommodates this situation.

Kind regards

Stephen

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 17:07, Rubayet Shafin <r.shafin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Stephen,

 

Could you please append one additional sentence—“A non-AP MLD supporting EMLSR mode of operation may have one radio or more than one radios.”?

 

Best

Rubayet

 

From: Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 11:04 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] [EXTERNAL] Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

 

Minyoung,

                 ok, so would this be better:

 

enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation: A mode of operation that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with multiple receive chains to listen on a set of enabled links, then move to one link within the set, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.

 

Regarding your second point, I politely disagree. I think it's essential to define these terms, as it's certainly not clear from clause 35 what these EML modes of operation are. I appreciate that this is difficult work, but I think it's worth persevering with.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 16:56, Minyoung Park <mpark.ieee@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Stephen,

 

The 'move to receive on one link within the set' is not correct. As I mentioned, a non-AP MLD in EMLSR mode doesn't move to receive before the immediately following frame exchanges.

 

If we cannot have a correct definition in Clause 3, it is better not to have it in Clause 3. It is better to rely on the EMLSR subclause in Clause 35.3.17.

 

Regards,

Minyoung

 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:45 PM Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Massinissa, John,

                            Thanks for your comments.Perhaps this would be suitable:

 

enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation: A mode of operation that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with multiple receive chains to listen on a set of enabled links, then move to receive on one link within the set, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.

 

I am trying to avoid re-introducing the term "Control frame", as I really don't think this is appropriate for a definition.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

 

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 16:32, Wullert, John R II (PERATON LABS) <jwullert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Stephen,

   One concern I have with your proposed definition is that while the term contains the words "single radio" the definition says "one or more" which can lead to confusion.  Perhaps we need to focus the definition not on how many radios the device has but on how many it uses in the context of the EMLSR operation.  While the former may be one or more, I believe the latter must be one.

John

From: Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:26 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

 

Rubayet,

              I don't think the EMLSR definition is ambiguous. The current definition that I propose supports the second of your options.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 16:20, Rubayet Shafin <r.shafin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Stephen,

 

Just for my understanding--why is it better to stay silent and keep things ambiguous?? We have had enough discussion in the group that is rooted from this ambiguity. I think it is time to clear that out.

 

  • If EMLSR is only for single radio devices, I think it has to be stated in the spec clearly
  • If EMLSR is for both single and multiple radios devices, I think it also has to be stated in the spec clearly.

 

Best

Rubayet

 

From: Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:14 PM
To: Rubayet Shafin <r.shafin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

 

Dear all,

             the current definition of EMLSR that I mentioned earlier, is silent about how many radios are present in the MLD. I think it's best left that way.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 16:11, Rubayet Shafin <r.shafin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Minyoung,

 

Do you intend to mean that a device that supports EMLSR can only have one radio? If you don’t intend to mean that, I think it would be better to clarify this rather than keeping the definition ambiguous on that aspect.

 

Best

Rubayet

 

From: Minyoung Park <mpark.ieee@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 9:21 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

 

Hi Stephen,

 

The EMLSR definitions is still not accurate. 

 

A non-AP MLD doesn't move to receive on one available link but the listening operation includes the receiving function of the initial control frame on the set of enabled links. A non-AP MLD moves to one available link on which the initial control frame was received and exchange frames.

 

Also deleting 'one or more radio(s)' would be better to avoid controversial discussions. (this wasn't in the original definition as well)

 

The following is my suggestion:

enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation: A mode of operation that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with multiple receive chains and with one or more radio(s), to listen on a set of enabled links, then move to receive on one available link within the set on which the initial Control frame was received, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.

 

Regards,

Minyoung

 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 5:57 PM Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eduard,

            I agree with the other comments that resources are not moved in an EMLSR mode, so I prefer my earlier definitions. This is what I propose to move forward with:

 

enhanced multi-link multiple radio (EMLMR) operation: A mode of operation that allows any of the stations (STAs) affiliated with a non-access point (AP) multi-link device (MLD) on a set of enabled links, to move receive and transmit spatial streams to one link within the set, to increase resources on that link, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges. (#10935, #11820, #12035, #12706)

 

enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation: A mode of operation that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with multiple receive chains and with one or more radio(s), to listen on a set of enabled links, then move to receive on one available link within the set, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.

 

Thanks.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

 

On Mon, 12 Sept 2022 at 14:46, Rubayet Shafin <r.shafin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Stephen,

 

I also disagree with Eduard in the sense that the EMLSR is “applied to a single-radio non-AP MLD”. EMLSR is a mode of operation, not a device-level capability. EMLSR can be applied to both single radio and multi-radio devices. In other word, a device with multiple radios may elect to operate on EMLSR mode on a subset of enabled links (EMLSR Links), while other radios can operate on non-EMLSR links.

 

I prefer your previous definition in this aspect.

 

Best

Rubayet

From: Minyoung Park <mpark.ieee@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 2:37 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions

 

Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I disagree with the statement from Eduard. The EMLSR doesn't move around resources between different links. Each STA's capability is announced during the association process and that capability is used in the EMLSR mode.

 

As I commented in the call last week, it would be better to focus on the EMLMR definition, which is what the commenter is asking for.

 

Regards,

Minyoung

 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 5:25 PM Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eduard,

            yes, I think that is reasonable.

 

Kind regards

 

Stephen

 

On Sun, 11 Sept 2022 at 23:43, Eduard Garcia Villegas <eduardg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dear Stephen,

As far as I understood, EMLSR is the same as EMLMR, but applied to a
single-radio non-AP MLD. Therefore, I'd use the same phrasing in both
definitions, based on the EMLMR definition you proposed (which I find more
accurate). Something like:

"*enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of operation
that allows a single-radio non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device
(MLD) with multiple receive chains, to listen on a set of enabled links,
then move receive and transmit spatial streams to one link within the set,
to increase resources on that link, for the immediately following set of
frame exchanges.
"

Note that, in the uplink, the non-AP MLD can choose to use its tx chain(s)
on a different link each time (i.e. not only moves rx chains).


Cheers,


Eduard

On Mon, September 12, 2022 12:03 am, Stephen McCann wrote:
> Dear all,
>              thanks for all the further comments on this topic. These are
> the some updated definitions that I have produced based on the comments:
>
> *enhanced multi-link multiple radio (EMLMR) operation*: A mode of
> operation
> that allows any of the stations (STAs) affiliated with a non-access point
> (AP) multi-link device (MLD) on a set of enabled links, to move receive
> and
> transmit spatial streams to one link within the set, to increase resources
> on that link, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.
> (#10935, #11820, #12035, #12706)
>
>
>
> *enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of operation
> that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with
> multiple receive chains and with one or more radio(s), to listen on a set
> of enabled links, then move to receive on one available link within the
> set, for the immediately following set of frame exchanges.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Stephen
>
> On Sat, 10 Sept 2022 at 11:39, Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> > And for "all of the following frame exchanges" seems eternal in scope.
>> If this definition is intended to be read by someone lacking extensive
>> 802.11 knowledge then it could say, for "the immediately following set
>> of
>> frame exchanges"
>>
>>
>>
>> Or just leave the ending of the condition unstated:
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of
>> operation
>> that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with
>> multiple receive chains to listen on a set of enabled links, then switch
>> to
>> one available link within the set.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I think that at least for emlsr, instead of switch it might say
>> something like "receive"
>>
>> > It turns out that listening on the link on which receive is not
>> occurring is still possible during the receive
>>
>>
>>
>> You mean
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of
>> operation
>> that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with
>> multiple receive chains to listen on a set of enabled links, then
>> receive
>> to [on?] one available link within the set.
>>
>>
>>
>> ?  That's not worse, but still doesn't explain the key point, which is
>> that the receive chains are reallocated to be used on the same channel.
>>
>>
>>
>> My suggestion would be:
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of
>> operation
>> that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) to
>> listen
>> on a set of enabled links using one radio frequency (RF) chain on each,
>> and
>> then switch all the RF chains to one of the links for subsequent
>> single-user multiple input, multiple output (SU-MIMO) operation on that
>> link.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, maybe it's because I wasn't there, but I find this definition
>> rather
>> confusing:
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link multiple radio (EMLMR) operation*: A mode of
>> operation that allows any of the stations (STAs) affiliated with a
>> non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) on a set of enabled
>> links, to switch receive and transmit spatial streams of one available
>> link
>> within the set, to increase resources on that link, for all of the
>> following frame exchanges.
>>
>>
>>
>> I initially read "switch tx and rx" as being that tx becomes rx and rx
>> becomes tx.
>>
>> Even if it means "transfer both of them to another link" (i.e. you need
>> to
>> have
>>
>> a "to X" after the "switch"), isn't this a definition of EMLSR?  What
>> does EMLMR
>>
>> do that EMLSR doesn't do?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN   English/Esperanto/Français
>>
>> Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre       Tel: +44 1223  434600
>>
>> Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS      Fax: +44 1223  434601
>>
>> ROYAUME UNI                             WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Fischer <matthew.fischer@xxxxxxxxx>
>> *Sent:* Friday, 9 September 2022 14:44
>> *To:* STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] EMLSR and EMLMR definitions
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that at least for emlsr, instead of switch it might say
>> something
>> like "receive"
>>
>>
>>
>> It turns out that listening on the link on which receive is not
>> occurring
>> is still possible during the receive
>>
>>
>>
>> And for "all of the following frame exchanges" seems eternal in scope.
>> If
>> this definition is intended to be read by someone lacking extensive
>> 802.11
>> knowledge then it could say, for "the immediately following set of frame
>> exchanges"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, 2:19 PM Stephen McCann <mccann.stephen@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>              thanks for your comments following my presentation of
>> 11-22-1196r3.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are the revised definitions that I presented:
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link multiple radio (EMLMR) operation*: A mode of
>> operation that allows any of the stations (STAs) affiliated with a
>> non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) on a set of enabled
>> links, to switch receive and transmit spatial streams of one available
>> link
>> within the set, to increase resources on that link, for all of the
>> following frame exchanges.
>>
>>
>>
>> *enhanced multi-link single radio (EMLSR) operation:* A mode of
>> operation
>> that allows a non-access point (non-AP) multi-link device (MLD) with
>> multiple receive chains to listen on a set of enabled links, then switch
>> to
>> one available link within the set, for all of the following frame
>> exchanges.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please let me know if you have any further suggestions. If we can
>> converge
>> on suitable text, then I can represent an updated submission next week.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Stephen
>> ------------------------------
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>
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