Hi Rui,
Thanks for your email and please find my answers inline as follows.
I think all the questions you mentioned have been discussed and answered via previous emails many times.
If you still have question, to make the discussion more efficient, we could have an online meeting rather than via email.
Best wishes,
Rui Du
发件人: Rui Yang [mailto:Rui.Yang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年2月18日
0:06
收件人: durui (D) <ray.du@xxxxxxxxxx>
抄送: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: RE: TGbf meeting on February 14, 15, 17
Hi Rui
Thank you for the great effort for clarification about TCIR.
Regarding the SR/Motion text proposed in your email, I don’t see any fundamental difference between this and the two failed motions (Motion 31 and Motion 49).
[Rui Du] During the discussions in last a few weeks, I don’t think there is anything that need to be modified fundamentally. I personally think, especially for the selecting rule,
it is quite nature and same/similar selecting rules is also proposed in other contributions for sensing (e.g. 802.15.4ab).
Please allow me to ask the questions again using the current text
1)
Is the action in the first sub-bullet (Generating the CIR (time domain) from frequency domain CSI (e.g.
by IFFT) ) implementation dependent? Does it require to be specified?
[Rui Du] As we discussed in previous email, I am not preventing any other methods that can be adopted to generate CIR. But IDFT/IFFT is definitely a good choice with the reasons
discussed before(i.e. widely adoption in wireless communication and linear transformation).
Other method with similar good properties also can be considered,
if you have any potential method, we can have further discussions.
2)
Is the selection of the taps in the second sub-bullet (Reporting the set of taps (complex samples) around
the tap with the largest magnitude of the entire CIR) implementation dependent? What is the physical meaning of those taps? What is the relationship among those taps in time or distance? Again,
if these are not specified, the receiver of the feedback can’t interpret them.
[Rui Du] I don’t think is should be implementation dependent. A common rule is needed for all the devices to understand each other. And the rule I proposed here is to select the
set around the largest magnitude tap.
As I always stated,
again, this is not a problem caused by TCIR, this is a classic problem in NLOS scenarios for both ranging or sensing, no matter what kind of feedback is adopted. And even if the CSI is adopted as
the feedback type, we are facing the same problem. And I think that is also the reason why same selecting rule is proposed in 802.15.4ab for sensing (as I mentioned in last email).
Let’s assume CSI is adopted, if you want to estimate the range/delay information, you also need to transform the CSI to time domain CIR. So,
now, what is physical meaning of those taps?
What is the relationship among those taps in time or distance ? How can the CIR be interpreted ? Can you explain how you are going to do that ?
3)
Regarding the third sub-bullet (The size of the selected set is corresponding to the range of interest),
if the tap with the largest magnitude does not corresponding to the LOS, can you determine the range?
[Rui Du]
This has been explained many times in previous emails. Under this condition, it is hard to determine the range without any other information. If some other information can be used, it will be helpful
for the range determination.
But, as we discussed in previous email, even the largest amplitude taps is not the LOS, a set of taps around the largest amplitude tap is still able to cover the information of target
human and further signal processing algorithms could be adopted for further processing.
Regarding the last question, since you mentioned 11ay, the snapshot below is from one of Assaf’s contributions which mentioned the issue from lack of LOS information (first two sentences).
Please keep in mind that discussion then was for beamforming training. It had nothing to do with ranging.
[Rui Du] As I stated in previous email, at 60GHz, the first path can be further evaluated with the polarization switching. But this kind of approach is not supported at sub 7 GHz
and I personally think the effectiveness of polarization switching at sub 7GHz also need further investigation.
NLOS is a case that affect the results both in ranging and sensing, this has been discussed in the emails for long time.
But I still think the selecting rule of TCIR doesn’t lead any extra confusion for the interpretation of CIRs and that is the reason why same rule is proposed in 802.15.4ab (which is used for sensing).
Best regards,
Ray
From: durui (D) <000017788cb650b9-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:12 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] 答复: TGbf meeting on February 14, 15, 17
Hi Tony,
I receive some valuable comments and questions for TCIR from the group members in last month, really appreciate that.
With the very good discussion, I’ve converged and confirmed the idea of TCIR with some group members. And still waiting for the potential further comments from other group members.
Since I haven’t received any further comments or questions until now, I would like to request the SP and motion again about the TCIR.
The SP text
•
Do you support to add the following to the TGbf SFD:
•
Truncated Channel Impulse Response(TCIR) described as follows should be considered as one optional type of the sensing measurement results for sub-7GHz sensing.
Ø
Generating the CIR (time domain) from frequency domain CSI (e.g. by IFFT).
Ø
Reporting the set of taps (complex samples) around the tap with the largest magnitude of the entire CIR .
Ø
The size of the selected set is corresponding to the range of interest.
Ø
Note: the calculation of the size of the reporting set is TBD.
The Motion text
•
Move to add the following to the TGbf SFD:
•
Truncated Channel Impulse Response(TCIR) described as follows should be considered as one optional type of the sensing measurement results for sub-7GHz sensing.
Ø
Generating the CIR (time domain) from frequency domain CSI (e.g. by IFFT).
Ø
Reporting the set of taps (complex samples) around the tap with the largest magnitude of the entire CIR .
Ø
The size of the selected set is corresponding to the range of interest.
Ø
Note: the calculation of the size of the reporting set is TBD.
The first sub-bullet modified to state that IFFT is one recommending method, other potential method also can be adopted to generating the CIR.
The second sub-bullet is the statement of how to select the reference point (this has been discussed clearly in the email thread and this is a common method that is
already adopted in 11ay and under discussion in 802.15.4ab).
The third sub-bullet remain the same meaning of the previously one.
And I am asking the group members again, please let me know if you have any further comments, questions or suggestions.
Many thanks.
Best wishes,
Rui Du
发件人: Hanxiao (Tony, WT Lab) [mailto:0000177ab8f731c4-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年2月11日
17:05
收件人: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] TGbf meeting on February 14, 15, 17
Dear all,
This is a reminder and
call for submissions for the upcoming
meeting on:
•
February 14 (Monday), 9am - 11:00am ET
•
February 15 (Tuesday), 9am - 11:00am ET
•
February 17 (Thursday), 10pm - 12:00am ET
Please note:
1.
Please
send the agenda
request at least
24 hours prior to the call, following the format below:
•
DCN, Title, Author (affiliation), Time duration
2.
I will cancel the call if there is no request received 24 hours prior to a call.
3.
Please
upload your submissions (revision 0) on mentor
24 hours prior to the meeting so that members would have a chance to review those submissions offline. Otherwise,
a.
If there is not enough time during the meeting, the presentation will be delayed to the next meeting.
b.
If there is enough time during the meeting, the presentation will be moved to the end of the queue and be presented in the end. However, any related SP should be delayed
to the next meeting.
4.
Please send the
motion request (with related DCN, and SP result) around
10+5 days before the meeting (for teleconference, not for Plenary or Interim meeting), so that the TG chair could send the 10 day advance
notice to the 802.11 reflector, after getting the approval from the WG chair.
5.
Dial-in information:
February 14 (Monday)
Join the Webex meeting here:
https://ieeesa.webex.com/ieeesa/j.php?MTID=m86e726b2f437f5a06f7c8dbcad778a33
Meeting number: 234 917 01979
Meeting password: wireless (94735377 from phones and video systems)
Join by phone: Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only)
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call-in numbers
Access code: 234 917 01979
Join from a video system or application Dial
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You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.
Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial
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Need help? Go to
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February 15 (Tuesday)
Join the Webex meeting here:
https://ieeesa.webex.com/ieeesa/j.php?MTID=m929b0619afb297bde19bd996631b5f16
Meeting number: 234 659 57065
Meeting password: wireless (94735377 from phones and video systems)
Join by phone: Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only)
+1-408-418-9388 USA Toll
Global
call-in numbers
Access code: 234 659 57065
Join from a video system or application Dial
23465957065@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.
Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial
23465957065.ieeesa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Need help? Go to
http://help.webex.com
February 17 (Thursday)
Join the Webex meeting here:
https://ieeesa.webex.com/ieeesa/j.php?MTID=md170f69e272dfa7f7939933839e8a4bf
Meeting number: 234 939 70716
Meeting password: wireless (94735377 from phones and video systems)
Join by phone: Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only)
+1-408-418-9388 USA Toll
Global
call-in numbers
Access code: 234 939 70716
Join from a video system or application Dial
23493970716@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.
Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial
23493970716.ieeesa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Best Regards : )
Tony Xiao Han
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