Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Follow-up on the Discussion on NDP Transmission i

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Hi Cheng,

Sorry for the late response, I missed your email!

Thanks for the examples you provided.

I do not tend to agree that these examples address the scenarios we proposed in our contribution.

I will think more in the examples and I will follow up on this discussion.

Best regards,

Mahmoud

From: stds-802-11-tgbf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <stds-802-11-tgbf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Chen, Cheng
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Mahmoud Kamel <Mahmoud.Kamel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Follow-up on the Discussion on NDP Transmission in TF Sounding Phase

Hi Mahmoud,

Even though I am still not convinced of the value/benefits of Method 3, I tend to agree with Ali that Method 3 is allowed per current 802.11 spec.

In 11ax D8.0 Section 26.15.7 Additional rules for group addressed frames in an HE MU PPDU, it is specified you can include a broadcast RU in the HE MU PPDU where you assign an RU to a group of STAs.

In 11ax D8.0 26.5.2.2 Rules for soliciting UL MU frames, I do not see anything saying an AP cannot allocate the same RU/SS to multiple STAs.

Another relevant example is the MU-RTS/CTS exchange, where the CTSs following the MU-RTS Trigger frame are coming from multiple STAs and are actually transmitted in the same frequency/SS resources.

In this regard, I don’t think current spec prohibits you to do Method 3, and therefore we do not need to add any additional rules in 11bf to specifically specify that. However, if you do see anywhere mentioning it is not allowed, then please feel free to point it out. But if that is the case, then Method 3 is not feasible anyways.

Best,

Cheng

From: Mahmoud Kamel <000019de5e655b6b-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2022 5:48 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Follow-up on the Discussion on NDP Transmission in TF Sounding Phase

Hi Ali,

Thanks for your comments.

I do not think the current specs allows the allocation mode proposed by Method 3 where the same resource can be allocated to multiple devices.

Would you please point out what specs state that this mode of allocation is allowed?

Best regards,

Mahmoud

From: Ali Raissinia <alirezar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2022 4:35 PM
To: Mahmoud Kamel <Mahmoud.Kamel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Follow-up on the Discussion on NDP Transmission in TF Sounding Phase

Hi Mahmoud.

For Method 3, I don't see it practical for AP to perform sensing where it is ‘hard’ to separate out signals from different devices. However, if a vender really wanted to build a very complex AP doing that, then I don't see anything more needed from the standard side - the AP could always choose to allocate the same resource (RU/SS) to multiple devices. So, I do not think this is a topic which needs to be handled in the standards forum as it is more of an AP product differentiation.

Regards,

Ali

From: Mahmoud Kamel <000019de5e655b6b-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 2:03 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Follow-up on the Discussion on NDP Transmission in TF Sounding Phase

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi all,

To follow-up on the discussion we started in contribution 22/0654r0, I share the table below to summarize the methods we presented in the meeting.

Please share your feedback/comments/suggestions to different methods to enable efficient WLAN sensing in various use cases and scenarios, including the one with large number of sensors.

The figure below is included for reference.

	Method 1	Method 2a	Method 2b	Method 3
Domain	Time Domain	Frequency Domain	Space Domain	Non-Orthogonal
Legacy Use	Secure/regular LTF in the uplink (Ranging)	Not used in the current standard	HE TB Ranging NDP	Not used in the current standard
Support in the Standard	Supported	Not Supported	Supported	Not Supported
Use cases	Multiple Triggering Sequence in case of large number of triggered sensing responders	Triggering multiple low-end devices (20MHz-only STAs)	Triggering multiple sensors such that each sensor sends the NDP over the entire bandwidth simultaneously	Coarse efficient sensing in scenarios with a large number of sensing responders
Pros	Simplicity	Support of 20MHz-only STAs	Simplicity	Efficiency (Support of a large number of sensing responders in the same TXOP)
Potential Problems	Inefficient WLAN sensing Limited number of sensing responders in the same TXOP	Complex allocation of uplink resources Limited number of sensing responders in the same TXOP Sensing accuracy	Power Control Limited number of sensing responders in the same TXOP	Power Control Synchronization

Best regards,

Mahmoud

From: Mahmoud Kamel
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2022 6:37 PM
To: Hanxiao (Tony, WT Lab) <0000177ab8f731c4-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: TGbf meeting on April 19, and 21

Hi Tony,

Please add the contribution below to the agenda for next week.

19-Apr-2022 ET

2022

654

TGbf

Discussion on NDP Transmission in TF Sounding Phase

Mahmoud Kamel (InterDigital)

20-Apr-2022 11:38:02 ET

Download

Best Regards,

Mahmoud

From: stds-802-11-tgbf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <stds-802-11-tgbf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Hanxiao (Tony, WT Lab)
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2022 12:09 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: TGbf meeting on April 19, and 21

Dear all,

This is a reminder and call for submissions for the upcoming meeting on:

1. April 19 (Tuesday), 10am - 12:00pm ET

2. April 21 (Thursday), 23：00 - 01:00am ET

Please note:

1. Please send the agenda request at least 24 hours prior to the call, following the format below:

• DCN, Title, Author (affiliation), Time duration

2. ~~I will cancel the call if there is no request received 24 hours prior to a call.~~

3. Please upload your submissions (revision 0) on mentor 24 hours prior to the meeting so that members would have a chance to review those submissions offline. Otherwise,

1. If there is not enough time during the meeting, the presentation will be delayed to the next meeting.

2. If there is enough time during the meeting, the presentation will be moved to the end of the queue and be presented in the end. However, any related SP should be delayed to the next meeting.

4. Please send the motion request (with related DCN, and SP result) around 10+5 days before the meeting (for teleconference, not for Plenary or Interim meeting), so that the TG chair could send the 10 day advance notice to the 802.11 reflector, after getting the approval from the WG chair.

5. Dial-in information:

April 19 (Tuesday), 10am - 12:00pm ET
Join the Webex meeting here: https://ieeesa.webex.com/ieeesa/j.php?MTID=m9244d36d009ef54b321bf1cf3fa2279b

Meeting number: 234 549 47435

Meeting password: wireless (94735377 from phones and video systems)

Join by phone: Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-408-418-9388 USA Toll
Global call-in numbers

Access code: 234 549 47435

Join from a video system or application Dial 23454947435@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.

Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial 23454947435.ieeesa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Need help? Go to http://help.webex.com

April 21 (Thursday), 23：00 - 01:00am ET
Join the Webex meeting here: https://ieeesa.webex.com/ieeesa/j.php?MTID=mb1ea2e6f8cefd600dd335a94f8b4f309

Meeting number: 234 597 43051

Meeting password: wireless (94735377 from phones and video systems)

Join by phone: Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-408-418-9388 USA Toll
Global call-in numbers

Access code: 234 597 43051

Join from a video system or application Dial 23459743051@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.

Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business Dial 23459743051.ieeesa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Need help? Go to http://help.webex.com

Best Regards : )

Tony Xiao Han

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