Hi Binita,
I try to give some quick response below. We can have more discussions next week.
- About the efficiency, I meant for the enable/disable/update/probing/response procedure but not about the operating phase.
- I think we are on the same page to have one set of NPCA parameters. Otherwise it could be complex.
- I didn’t mean to “limit NPCA to be enabled only when DBE is enabled”. It is about to limit to one set of NPCA parameters and to indicate modes/parameters that are outside of BSS BW
only to DBE STAs in certain scenarios, e.g., NPCA is enabled and NPCA PCH is outside BSS BW and within DBE BW. So to avoid ambiguity for non-DBE STAs. Will provide more details later.
- By “extra complexity and overhead”, I meant potential ambiguity/confusion for both non-DBE and DBE STAs, given that NPCA parameters could be distributed inside or outside of BSS BW
and the AP operating BW could change over time. Careful design of signaling/procedure is needed to avoid such complexity/overhead.
Best regards
Yongsen
From: Binita Gupta <bingupta.ieee@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2025 9:35 PM
To: Yongsen Ma <yongsen.ma@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] Requesting feedback on 25/1204 "DBE Operation with NPCA"
Hi Yongsen, Thank you for your comments. Please see my responses inline below. Thanks, Binita On Thu, Sep 11, 2025 at 8: 30 PM Yongsen Ma <yongsen. ma@ samsung. com>
wrote: Hi Binita, Thank you for your presentation. I think the option of
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Hi Yongsen,
Thank you for your comments.
Please see my responses inline below.
Hi Binita,
Thank you for your presentation.
I think the option of SP2 in 25/1204r1 is not very efficient. When a non-DBE STA sees “NPCA Supported/Enabled”, it does not know whether it is supported/enabled within BSS BW or
DBE BW.
<BG> From NPCA Enabled, a non-DBE STAs knows that the NPCA is enabled in the BSS. It gets the NPCH from the NPCA CU and will know whether NPCH is in BSS BW or outside the BSS BW.
If NPCH is in the BSS BW then it can perform NPCA. If NPCH is outside the BSS BW then it does not perform NPCA. That is the main behavior for non-DBE STA. What is inefficient here?
The non-DBE STA would send OMP Request to the AP and may find out that NPCA PCH is outside of BSS BW.
<BG> MP is to enable NPCA, not to get the NPCH PCH.
Non-DBE STA would know NPCA PCH from the NPCA CU notification, when NPCA is enabled or NPCH is updated by the AP.
I think before going to the details, it is better to first check whether the group agree to extend NPCA to the DBE BW. We have a submission for similar purpose,
25/0835 Coexistence of Features with Operating Mode Switching Operations.
<BG> I think it is good to understand the details on how NPCA over DBE will be realized, so that group can make an informed decision.
To me it is straightforward to extend NPCA over DBE BW. There is no reason to not allow NPCA to be used over DBE BW, since that will mostly exclude use of NPCA from enterprise deployments, where BSS BWs are typically low (20/40/80). That does not seem a good
direction for TGbn to take. We need to allow use of NPCA in enterprise deployments.
We also have another submission 25/1591 for DBE+NPCA signaling options. I will upload the slides later; the idea is to have NPCA Enabled/Parameters indicated conditionally based
on whether DBE is enabled or not, so that it would not change baseline NPCA behavior and would not introduce extra complexity or confusion for non-DBE/DBE STAs. I think it could help enable DBE+NPCA without introducing too much complexity or overhead.
<BG> Adding separate bits to indicate NPCA Supported over DBE or NPCA Enabled over DBE is possible, however that is added complexity which to me is not needed. I am trying to propose a way that allows NPCA to be used over DBE BW w/o adding
too much extra signaling/complexity.
RE>>"the idea is to have NPCA Enabled/Parameters indicated conditionally based on whether DBE is enabled or not,"
--but NPCA can be enabled even without DBE. Why would we limit NPCA to be enabled only when DBE is enabled?
RE>>"so that it would not change baseline NPCA behavior and would not introduce extra complexity or confusion for non-DBE/DBE STAs. I think it could help enable DBE+NPCA without introducing too much complexity or overhead."
I think having two sets of NPCA signaling (one for baseline NPCA and another for NPCA over DBE) would add more complexity than is needed. Adding complexity would make it hard to deploy NPCA over DBE.
All that is needed for non-DBE STAs is to look at the NPCH and if it is in BSS BW switch to it else not switch to it.
Could you clarify what you mean by "complexity and overhead". Not clear what specifically you mean by that.
Best regards
Yongsen
Hi All, I presented 25/1204r1 in a TGbn Ad-hoc session today on "DBE Operation with NPCA" Thanks to members who provided their comments
during the call and in the chat. Listing below the members who were in the queue. Please provide
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Hi All,
I presented
25/1204r1 in a TGbn Ad-hoc session today on "DBE Operation with NPCA"
Thanks to members who provided their comments during the call and in the chat. Listing below the members who were in the queue.
Please provide your feedback/comments on the contribution in this thread or to me.
Want to highlight that there are two cases to consider:
-
Case 1: NPCA was not enabled before DBE mode is enabled, then NPCA is enabled over DBE BW after DBE mode is enabled. E..g when BSS BW is 20/40 MHz in enterprise deployments, NPCA can't be enabled. When DBE mode is enabled with 80/160/320 MHz, then NPCA
gets enabled over DBE BW.
-
Case 2: NPCA is enabled before DBE mode is enabled, then NPCA parameters can change after DBE mode enablement. E..g NPCA enabled over 80 MHz BSS BW, then DBE mode is enabled with DBE BW of 320 MHz. In this case, if all/most associated STAs support DBE
over 320 MHz, then it is better for AP to change NPCA PCH to be in the S160 (as per D1.0 rules for NPCA PCH in the BSS BW), since then NPCA can still be performed if OBSS occupies more than P40.
In both these cases AP can send an NPCA critical update to enable NPCA (case 1) or change parameters for NPCA (case 2) after DBE mode is enabled.
[V] Gaurang Naik, Qualcomm •
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[V]Yan Li,ZTE •
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[V] Yongsen Ma, Samsung •
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[V] Shravan, Huawei •
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[V] Laurent Cariou, Intel •
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[v] Liwen Chu, NXP •
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[V] Liangxiao Xin (OPPO) •
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Yunbo Li (Huawei) •
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[V] Seongho Byeon, Samsung Electronics •
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[V] Salvatore Talarico (Nokia) •
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[V] Zhenpeng Shi, Huawei •
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[V] Mahmoud Hasabelnaby, Huawei •
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[V] Zhanjing Bao, ZTE •
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[V] Yingqiao Quan, Spreadtrum •
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[V] Klaus Doppler, Nokia •
[v] Xiangxin.Gu, Spreadtrum
[V] Salvatore Talarico (Nokia)
Thanks,
Binita
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