Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] Minutes posted for Oct 12th Telecon
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Task Group M Technical Reflector ---
> Since you brought up fragmentation, while I doubt fragmentation of EAPOL PDUs ever happens, we could
> perhaps cover this case more correctly by saying that an EAPOL-Key frame is a data MPDU that carries
> "some or all" of an EAPOL PDU. Thus, if an EAPOL PDU does have to be carried via more than one data
> MPDU, each with a fragment, then each of those data MPDUs is an EAPOL-Key frame. I think this still
> works, and keeps everything consistent. But, I also think it is probably overkill.
I think I would be happy if an EAPOL frame were described as something which
carried some or all of an EAPOL PDU.
> But, I also think it is probably overkill.
I don't think so. I really don't want to add anything which could get
people mixing MSDUs and MPDUs up.
So how about:
<<
EAPOL frame: A Data frame which carries all or part of an 802.1X EAPOL PDU.
EAPOL-Key frame: An EAPOL frame which carries all or part of an 802.1X EAPOL PDU of type EAPOL-Key.
EAPOL-Key request frame: An EAPOL-Key frame which carries all or part of an 802.1X EAPOL PDU of type EAPOL-Key with the Request bit set.
EAPOL-Start frame: An EAPOL frame which carries all or part of an 802.1X EAPOL PDU of type EAPOL-Start.
[Adjust the "of type" and "Request bit" bits to use the correct 802.1X terminology]
Within 802.11, EAPOL PDUs, as described in 802.1X-2010 clause 11, are carried in one or more Data frames; Data frames used for this purpose are known within this Standard as EAPOL frames (and sometimes more specifically as EAPOL-Key frames, EAPOL-Key request frames or EAPOL-Start frames).
IEEE 802.1X EAPOL PDUs are transmitted in IEEE 802.11 Data frames known as EAPOL frames ...
>>
? [I've adopted the "Data frame" (cf. data MPDU) terminology which we agreed to
under CID 100.]
Mark
--
Mark RISON, Systems Architect, Wi-Fi English/Esperanto/Français
Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600
Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0ZT Fax: +44 1223 TBCTBC
ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hamilton, Mark [mailto:Mark.Hamilton@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 29 October 2012 01:40
> To: m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx; STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGM] Minutes posted for Oct 12th Telecon
>
> Mark,
>
> I was being quite specific, intentionally. We can argue about my approach, but I don't think I mixing
> anything up.
>
> From 802.1X, "EAPOL PDUs" are exchanged between PAEs. And, further, 802.1X specifically talks about
> these being exchanged by passing them as MSDUs to the MAC Service. So, EAPOL PDUs _are_ 802.11 MSDUs
> (not "carried by" them). This all makes sense, as 802.1X PAEs are MAC Service users.
>
> I have no opinion whether EAPOL PDUs can be fragmented by 802.11 (or any other MAC Service). I don't
> see why not - they are just another MSDU at the level where fragmentation is done. Thus, again, I
> claim that EAPOL PDUs are MSDUs like any other.
>
> What I am trying to convey with this new definition/concept is what an "EAPOL-Key frame" (and its
> various other spellings) means. We call this a "frame" and the text discusses these being "exchanged"
> with peer entities. That means they are PDUs (to some entity). From 802.1X, its PDUs are EAPOL PDUs.
> But, also from 802.1X, these PDUs are delivered to the MAC Service (as MSDUs) and are then carried 'on
> the wire' or 'on the air' (those are 802.1X's words) using 'EAPOL frames' at the MAC Service layer.
> That is, the MAC Service takes the EAPOL PDU and applies MAC-specific procedure and protocol to result
> in the actual frame exchange that carries the EAPOL PDUs to the peer PAE. In our case, we do that
> with data MPDUs. I believe there is a simple mapping, then, that 802.11 has data MPDUs that carry
> lots of MSDUs. Sometimes those MSDUs happen to be EAPOL PDUs. And, in that case, the data MPDUs can
> be referred to as EAPOL frames, or, EAPOL-Key frames as we have chosen.
>
> The attempt is to explain what discussion like that in 4.5 and 4.10, and pictures like Figure 12-2
> (802.11-2012) are showing. I don't think it helps us to talk about these being MSDUs, as that makes
> the terms "frame" or "exchange" in this context very confusing with respect to the usage of these
> terms in the rest of the Standard.
>
> Since you brought up fragmentation, while I doubt fragmentation of EAPOL PDUs ever happens, we could
> perhaps cover this case more correctly by saying that an EAPOL-Key frame is a data MPDU that carries
> "some or all" of an EAPOL PDU. Thus, if an EAPOL PDU does have to be carried via more than one data
> MPDU, each with a fragment, then each of those data MPDUs is an EAPOL-Key frame. I think this still
> works, and keeps everything consistent. But, I also think it is probably overkill.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Rison [mailto:m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 12:07 AM
> To: Hamilton, Mark; STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGM] Minutes posted for Oct 12th Telecon
>
> I won't pretend to know about 802.1 or 802.1X, but I would like to make sure we're not going to get
> our MSDUs and MPDUs mixed up again. So:
>
> > I looked at 802.1-2010 for an updated reference place for this
> > concept. Looking there, I note that Clause 11 is where this 'frame'
> > is defined in detail. And, that clause is quite consistent in using
> > the term 'EAPOL PDU' for the information units exchanged between PAEs. [...] EAPOL PDUs are MSDUs
> to the MAC Service.
>
> So far so good...
>
> > Add a definition in subclause 3.2, "EAPOL-Key frame: An 802.11 data
> > MPDU which carries an 802.1X EAPOL PDU."
>
> Unless 802.1X EAPOL PDUs can't be fragmented when carried over 802.11 (and I would be somewhat
> surprised by such a constraint) then surely it should be "An 802.11 MSDU which carries"?
>
> > Add a sentence to the end of the second paragraph of subclause 4.2.5:
> > "Within 802.11, EAPOL PDUs are carried as MSDUs within data MDPUs, as
> > described in 802.1X-2010, clause 11; data MPDUs used for this purpose are known within this Standard
> as EAPOL-Key frames."
>
> Similarly, I think "MSDUs used for this purpose" would be better.
> The reference to data MPDUs risks confusing things, so I would delete "within data MPDUs" too.
>
> Oh, and does 802.1X-2010 really describe carrying EAPOL PDUs as MSDUs?
> Shouldn't the "as described" refer to the EAPOL PSDUs, not the (802.11) MSDUs?
>
> What about the "EAPOL-Start frame"s, "EAPOL frame"s and "EAPOL-Key request frame"s of Jouni's
> suggestion, though?
>
> So I'm wondering (again, from my limited understanding of 802.1) whether it shouldn't be something
> like:
>
> <<
> EAPOL frame: An 802.11 MSDU which carries an 802.1X EAPOL PDU.
> EAPOL-Key frame: An EAPOL frame of type EAPOL-Key.
> EAPOL-Key request frame: An EAPOL-Key frame with the Request bit set.
> EAPOL-Start frame: An EAPOL frame of type EAPOL-Start.
> [Adjust the "of type" and "Request bit" bits to use the correct 802.1X terminology]
>
> Within 802.11, EAPOL PDUs, as described in 802.1X-2010 clause 11, are carried as MSDUs; MSDUs used for
> this purpose are known within this Standard as EAPOL frames (and sometimes more specifically as EAPOL-
> Key frames, EAPOL-Key request frames or EAPOL-Start frames).
> >>
>
> > Change the start of the sentence in 4.10.2, "IEEE 802.1X
> > authentication frames are transmitted in IEEE
> > 802.11 data frames ..." to "IEEE 802.1X EAPOL PDUs are transmitted in
> > IEEE 802.11 data MPDUs known as EAPOL-Key frames ..."
>
> "in IEEE 802.11 MSDUs". Also maybe "as EAPOL frames", per the above.
>
> > In the table in subclause 6.3.22.1.2, change "EAPOL-Key frame" to "EAPOL PDU"
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Mark RISON, Systems Architect, Wi-Fi English/Esperanto/Français
> Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600
> Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0ZT Fax: +44 1223 TBCTBC
> ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ***** IEEE stds-802-11-tgm List *****
> > [mailto:STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hamilton, Mark
> > Sent: 28 October 2012 13:31
> > To: STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] Minutes posted for Oct 12th Telecon
> >
> > --- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Task Group M Technical
> > Reflector ---
> >
> > On Friday's teleconference, I took an action item to propose some text
> > setting a convention for the use of the term "EAPOL frame".
> >
> >
> >
> > In investigating the wording for this, I looked at 802.1-2010 for an
> > updated reference place for this concept. Looking there, I note that
> > Clause 11 is where this 'frame' is defined in detail. And, that
> > clause is quite consistent in using the term 'EAPOL PDU' for the
> > information units exchanged between PAEs. While other parts of 802.1X
> > are less consistent, this clause seems to layout the idea that EAPOL PDUs are exchanged via the MAC
> transmission and reception of EAPOL frames. EAPOL PDUs are MSDUs to the MAC Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thus, I propose:
> >
> >
> >
> > Add a definition in subclause 3.2, "EAPOL-Key frame: An 802.11 data
> > MPDU which carries an 802.1X EAPOL PDU."
> >
> >
> >
> > Add a sentence to the end of the second paragraph of subclause 4.2.5:
> > "Within 802.11, EAPOL PDUs are carried as MSDUs within data MDPUs, as
> > described in 802.1X-2010, clause 11; data MPDUs used for this purpose are known within this Standard
> as EAPOL-Key frames."
> >
> >
> >
> > Change the start of the sentence in 4.10.2, "IEEE 802.1X
> > authentication frames are transmitted in IEEE
> > 802.11 data frames ..." to "IEEE 802.1X EAPOL PDUs are transmitted in
> > IEEE 802.11 data MPDUs known as EAPOL-Key frames ..."
> >
> >
> >
> > In the table in subclause 6.3.22.1.2, change "EAPOL-Key frame" to "EAPOL PDU"
> >
> >
> >
> > I also suggest we update the references to 802.1X to be to the
> > 802.1X-2010 revision. On a quick scan, I don't see that there is any
> > terminology becomes out-of-date. There are a couple specific clause
> > references that need updating: in 11.6.2, clause references to 7.1
> > need to be 11.3 for the first occurrence and 11 for the second. I believe we can just change
> 802.1X-2004 to 802.1X-2011 in all other occurrences. But, I'm not an expert on this, and experts
> should review for any subtle changes.
> > I could perhaps submit this as a comment on D1.0, if we're more comfortable with that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lastly, I also found many uses of the phrase “802.1X frame(s)” which I
> > think slipped past Jouni’s list (by not having ‘EAPOL’ in them), but should also be modified in the
> same way.
> >
> >
> >
> > I welcome comments on any of the above.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ***** IEEE stds-802-11-tgm List *****
> > [mailto:STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jouni Malinen
> > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 7:38 AM
> > To: STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] Minutes posted for Oct 12th Telecon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Task Group M Technical
> > Reflector ---
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:59 PM, Jon Rosdahl <jrosdahl@xxxxxxxx <mailto:jrosdahl@xxxxxxxx> > wrote:
> >
> > > ACTION ITEM: Jouni to take some time to research and provide a
> >
> > > proposal for the usage of the “EAPOL_Key frame”’ name issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > Existing references to Data frames that use EAPOL ethertype:
> >
> >
> >
> > IEEE Std 802.11-2012:
> >
> >
> >
> > EAPOL-Key frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Key Frame
> >
> > IEEE 802.1X EAPOL-Key frame
> >
> > 802.1X EAPOL-Key frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Key
> >
> > EAPOL-Key message
> >
> > EAPOL-Key Message
> >
> > EAPOL-Key 4-Way Handshake Message
> >
> > EAPOL-Key request frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Key Request frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Key request message
> >
> > EAPOL request message
> >
> > IEEE 802.1X EAPOL frame
> >
> > EAPOL message
> >
> > EAPOL-Start message
> >
> > EAPOL-Start packet
> >
> > IEEE 802.1X EAPOL-Start message
> >
> > EAP authentication frame
> >
> > EAP-Request/Identity message
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > IEEE Std 802.1X-2010
> >
> >
> >
> > EAPOL PDU
> >
> > EAPOL frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Key
> >
> > EAPOL-Key frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Start
> >
> > EAPOL-Start frame
> >
> > EAPOL-Start PDU
> >
> > EAPOL-Start packet
> >
> > EAPOL-EAP frame
> >
> > EAP message
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "EAPOL* frame" and "EAPOL*" are the most commonly used forms.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Proposal for P802.11-REVmc:
> >
> >
> >
> > EAPOL-Key Frame --> EAPOL-Key frame
> >
> > IEEE 802.1X EAPOL-Key frame --> EAPOL-Key frame 802.1X EAPOL-Key frame
> > --> EAPOL-Key frame EAPOL-Key message --> EAPOL-Key frame EAPOL-Key
> > Message --> EAPOL-Key frame EAPOL-Key Request frame --> EAPOL- Key
> > request frame EAPOL-Key request message --> EAPOL-Key request frame
> > EAPOL request message --> EAPOL-Key request frame IEEE 802.1X EAPOL
> > frame --> EAPOL frame EAPOL message --> EAPOL frame EAPOL- Start
> > message --> EAPOL-Start frame EAPOL-Start packet --> EAPOL-Start frame
> > IEEE 802.1X EAPOL-Start message --> EAPOL-Start frame EAP
> > authentication frame --> EAP message
> >
> >
> >
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