Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] TGmd Teleconferences: May 25, June 1,15,22 10am Ea

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I shall unfortunately not be able to attend tomorrow for personal reasons,

so am providing the following feedback in advance:

a. Youhan KIM – CID 1374 (10 mins)

Assuming this is 18/0879r1, the problem is that the current 9.3.1.2 text

does not clearly distinguish the two cases (VHT STA to VHT STA and

VHT STA to non-VHT STA) and also confuses the order (it's not the fact

that the scrambling sequence carries *_BANDWIDTH_IN_NON_HT that means

the TA is a bandwidth-signalling TA, it's the fact that the TA is a bwsTA

that means the scrambling sequence carries *_BANDWIDTH_IN_NON_HT, or

maybe more neutrally the two have equal importance).

Hence the proposed changes makes it clear that

the RTS is non-HT or non-HT dup and is sent to another VHT STA

THEN

- the scrambling sequence carries *_BANDWIDTH_IN_NON_HT

AND

- the TA is a bwsTA

[Otherwise it's the pre-VHT behaviour, no bwsTA, no signalling

in scrambling sequence, nothing to specify.]

The proposed change should be accepted.

While I'm in 18/0879r1, re CID 1339, the following grammar is poor and needs improving:

A VHT beamformer may use the worst-case for various parameters to estimate the duration of the expected frame(s) that contain(s) the feedback response(s), such as

Also, the current spec doesn't refer to codebook precision, it refers

to codebook size, so "highest-precision codebook" should be

"largest-size codebook" (my fault, sorry).

Also, "However, codebook is not the only missing parameter. For example, PPDU type (non-HT, HT, VHT) and

PPDU bandwidth also impact the duration of the expected frame. " is true, but the codebook

size has a much more significant effect than the PPDU type, and the

PPDU bandwidth is fixed by the rules in 10.6. So the codebook size

is the key thing that is missing. The PPDU type fuzz is already covered

by the:

NOTE 1—Estimated times might prove to be inexact, if the TXOP responder has a choice of PHY options (e.g., BCC v.

LDPC, use of STBC, use of short GI, PHY header/preamble format options) or MAC options (e.g., use of HT Control).

b. Sigurd S 11-18-701 CIDs 1359 (10 mins)

As previously discussed (see attached), 1359 cannot be rejected without

leaving inconsistency. The changes required are:

- Delete NOTE in 19.2.4

- Separate VHT AP and non-VHT HT AP cases in Table 19-24

- HTP2.3.2.1 to HTP2.3.2.8 in B.4: change condition from (CFHT AND CFAP) to (CFHT AND CFAP AND NOT CFVHT)

and add (CFVHT AND CFAP):O

a. Mike MONTEMURRO - PHY CIDs 1552, 1324, 1264, 1188, 1004, 1552 , 11-18-1899 (80 mins)

[I think 18/0899 not 18/1899 was intended here. Ditto 1522 not 1552

(but why twice?).]

- CID 1366: the DataKDs should not all be DataKD_F1; they should be

DataKD_F1/F2/F3/F4 as in the resolution for CID 1365 above

- CID 1441: if we are not maintaining deprecated material, we should

delete it. However, in any case we are maintaining deprecated

material (it has been proposed, and possibly even motioned, to

explicitly insert a row saying "deprecated" in an AKM table or somesuch)

- CID 1522: what is the justification for the assertion that

"The “+delayed” should be removed."? Certainly a non-delayed BlockAck

does not require ack

- CID 1522: "(* These frames require acknowledgment *)" should not

be included in the replacement, or the text will end up with a duplicate

comment

- CID 1324 is missing

- CID 1264 is missing

- CID 1188 is missing

- CID 1004 is missing

Thanks,

Mark

Note: Pursuant to the notice at the end of this email, this email

is addressed to everyone involved in 802.11 work, and does

not contain protected information. Full dissemination,

distribution, copying and use is authorised.

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: ***** 802.11 REVm - Revision Maintainance List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dorothy Stanley
Sent: 22 May 2018 20:40
To: STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] TGmd Teleconferences: May 25, June 1,15,22 10am Eastern, 2 hours; initial Agenda document posted

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Task Group M Technical Reflector ---

All,

The draft agenda for this Friday's TGmd teleconference is available here:

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/18/11-18-1007-01-000m-tgmd-2018-may-june-teleconference-agendas.docx .

Proposed comment resolution topics are as follows:

a. Youhan KIM – CID 1374 (10 mins)

b. Sigurd S 11-18-701 CIDs 1359 (10 mins)

c. Roger MARKS – CID 1533 (10 mins)

a. Mike MONTEMURRO - PHY CIDs 1552, 1324, 1264, 1188, 1004, 1552 , 11-18-1899 (80 mins)

Let me know of any additional requested changes.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------
Dorothy Stanley
IEEE 802.11 WG Chair, dstanley@xxxxxxxx
Hewlett Packard Enterprise
dorothy.stanley@xxxxxxx
dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx
+1 630-363-1389

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

All,

The draft agendas for the recently authorized TGmd teleconferences on May 25th, June 1st, June 15th and June 22nd 2018

are posted in https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/18/11-18-1007-00-000m-tgmd-2018-may-june-teleconference-agendas.docx .

The teleconferences are at 10am Eastern for 2 hours, and we will use the join.me bridge:

https://join.me/ieee802.11, see http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/11/joinme.html for more detailed instructions.

An initial proposed running order for comment resolution/presentation is replicated below.

Let me know of any requested changes or additions.

Thanks,

Dorothy

=================================

       2018-05-25

a.       Youhan KIM – CID 1374 (10 mins)

b.      Sigurd S 11-18-701 CIDs 1359 (10 mins)

c.       Roger MARKS – CID 1533 (10 mins)

d.      Guido HIERTZ – 11-18-810, CID 1195 (45 mins)

e.      Mike MONTEMURRO - PHY CIDs 1552, 1324, 1264, 1188, 1004, 1552 (40 mins)

       2018-06-01

a.       Yujin NOH – 11-18-709 (45 mins)

b.      Ganesh VENKATESAN – 11-18-885 (15 mins)

c.       Carlos CORDEIRO – DMG CIDs 18/889 (45 mins)

       2018-06-15

a.       Matthew FISCHER – 11-17-1192 ESP comment resolution (75 mins)

b.      Mike MONTEMURRO - 11-18-1899 (40 mins)

       2018-06-22

a.       Robert STACEY – 11-18-702

b.

----------------------
Dorothy Stanley
IEEE 802.11 WG Chair, dstanley@xxxxxxxx
Hewlett Packard Enterprise
dorothy.stanley@xxxxxxx
dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx
+1 630-363-1389

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGM list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGM&A=1

Hello Sigurd,

> > Was an alternative interpretation that a VHT AP is not required to support 2SS VHT PPDUs but is required to support 2SS HT PPDUs (as e.g. those instances above suggest) discussed?

> It wasn’t. While that would be a possibility, I strongly suspect we’d be creating backwards compatibility issues by assuming this now. It’s very likely that VHT implementations exist that only implement single stream in both VHT and HT mode (e.g. mobile AP with single antenna).

OK.

> I looked at the other instances you found:

- > 19.2.4 NOTE: To be consistent “AP” would have to be replaced with “AP that is not a VHT AP”. It would be even cleaner to remove the NOTE since it just repeats a requirement given elsewhere.

OK to delete.

- > Table 19-24: again, simply repeats (for information) the requirement found elsewhere. Either make it consistent or delete.

All PHYs have this kind of table. I've never quite understood what it's for,

but we can't just delete it here. So I think we need to make it consistent,

i.e. separate the VHT HT AP and non-VHT HT AP cases.

- > HTP2.3.2.1 to HTP2.3.2.8: change condition from (CFHT AND CFAP) to (CFHT AND CFAP AND NOT CFVHT)

You also need to add a (CFHT AND CFVHT AND CFAP):O

because otherwise it would be saying that a VHT HT AP is not allowed

to support 2SS, which isn't true.

Thanks,

Mark

Note: Pursuant to the notice at the end of this email, this email

is addressed to everyone involved in 802.11 work, and does

not contain protected information. Full dissemination,

distribution, copying and use is authorised.

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: Sigurd Schelstraete [mailto:sschelstraete@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 08 May 2018 15:31
To: Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx>; Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGM] [STDS-802-11] Updated TGmd agenda posted

Hi Mark,

You asked: “Was an alternative interpretation that a VHT AP is not required to support 2SS VHT PPDUs but is required to support 2SS HT PPDUs (as e.g. those instances above suggest) discussed?”

It wasn’t. While that would be a possibility, I strongly suspect we’d be creating backwards compatibility issues by assuming this now. It’s very likely that VHT implementations exist that only implement single stream in both VHT and HT mode (e.g. mobile AP with single antenna).

I looked at the other instances you found:

- 19.2.4 NOTE: To be consistent “AP” would have to be replaced with “AP that is not a VHT AP”. It would be even cleaner to remove the NOTE since it just repeats a requirement given elsewhere.

- Table 19-24: again, simply repeats (for information) the requirement found elsewhere. Either make it consistent or delete.

- HTP2.3.2.1 to HTP2.3.2.8: change condition from (CFHT AND CFAP) to (CFHT AND CFAP AND NOT CFVHT)

If that’s acceptable, we should add it to the resolution proposed for CID 1388. I favor deleting of the repeated requirements if they’re for information only.

Regards,

Sigurd

Oh yeah: Note: Pursuant to the notice at the end of this email, this email

is addressed to everyone involved in 802.11 work, and does

not contain protected information. Full dissemination,

distribution, copying and use is authorised.

From: Mark Rison [mailto:m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 11:17 AM
To: Dorothy Stanley <dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Sigurd Schelstraete <sschelstraete@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGM] [STDS-802-11] Updated TGmd agenda posted

External Email

Hello,

I have the following comment on the resolution to CID 1388:

I think this is concluding that it is intentional that an HT AP

that is not a VHT AP is required to support 2SS, but an HT AP that

is also a VHT AP is only required to support 1SS.

This seems odd to me, but nonetheless, if that is the intent

then other parts of D1.0 are in conflict with this and will need

to be fixed, e.g.:

- 19.2.4: NOTE—Support of 20 MHz non-HT format and 20 MHz HT format

with one and two spatial streams is mandatory at APs.

- Table 19-24: MCS 0–15 for 20 MHz mandatory at AP

- B.4.17.2: HTP2.3.2.1-8: (CFHT AND CFAP):M

Was an alternative interpretation that a VHT AP is not required

to support 2SS VHT PPDUs but is required to support 2SS HT PPDUs

(as e.g. those instances above suggest) discussed?

Thanks,

Mark

Note: Pursuant to the notice at the end of this email, this email

is addressed to everyone involved in 802.11 work, and does

not contain protected information. Full dissemination,

distribution, copying and use is authorised.

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: ***** 802.11 REVm - Revision Maintainance List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dorothy Stanley
Sent: 07 May 2018 20:08
To: STDS-802-11-TGM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGM] [STDS-802-11] Updated TGmd agenda posted

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Task Group M Technical Reflector ---

Thank you Sigurd.

TGmd members,

Please review the resolution proposed by Sigurd in 11-18-701r1, which incorporates

feedback from the discussion in PM1 today.

If there are no further comments, we'll proceed with the proposed revised resolution for CID 1359

in 11-18-701r1.

Dorothy

----------------------
Dorothy Stanley
IEEE 802.11 WG Chair, dstanley@xxxxxxxx
Hewlett Packard Enterprise
dorothy.stanley@xxxxxxx
dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx
+1 630-363-1389

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Sigurd Schelstraete <sschelstraete@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I have uploaded a new revision of document 701.

Regards,

Sigurd

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 11:57 AM
To: Sigurd Schelstraete <sschelstraete@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] Updated TGmd agenda posted

External Email

Hello Sigurd,

Can you come to TGmd today PM1?

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------
Dorothy Stanley
IEEE 802.11 WG Chair, dstanley@xxxxxxxx
Hewlett Packard Enterprise
dorothy.stanley@xxxxxxx
dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx
+1 630-363-1389

On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Sigurd Schelstraete <sschelstraete@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Dorothy,

I uploaded document 701 a while ago with two resolutions that Mike assigned to me (CID 1388 and 1359).

Regards,

Sigurd

From: Dorothy Stanley [mailto:dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2018 11:27 PM
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11] Updated TGmd agenda posted

External Email

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

All,

Please see https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/18/11-18-0625-01-000m-2018-may-tgmd-agenda.pptx

The first TGmd time-slot is Monday PM1. Please let me know of any additional agenda requests.

Thanks,

Dorothy

----------------------
Dorothy Stanley
IEEE 802.11 WG Chair, dstanley@xxxxxxxx
Hewlett Packard Enterprise
dorothy.stanley@xxxxxxx
dstanley1389@xxxxxxxxx
+1 630-363-1389

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