Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
I think the broadcast service you are referring will be very hard to
conceive under the MAC layer, because IP multicast packets will be different
in each BS, even if their content is the same. You will also face a horde of
synchronization issues.
One possible solution to the problem is to map such broadcast service
directly to the PHY, to enable the benefits of soft combining,
non-interrupted HO, etc. The MAC should of course be used to describe,
maintain and provision the broadcast area.
An example of how this might work can be seen in DOCSIS and DVB networks,
where the MPEG content is mapped directly to the physical media.
Yigal
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Yong Chang
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:31 AM
To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
Yes. What you proposed is one of alternatives for receiving the same
multimedia broadcast content on handover.
However, you know, since your procedure follows the current handover
scenario of 16e, there may be a little interruption of the broadcast content
receipt.
Based on 3G experience, we can achieve the performance improvement by
combining softly the same broadcast content if the CID is the same over all
BSs.
That is, since the CID for the specific broadcast content is the same in the
overlap region between two BSs, then the MSS can receive two identical
broadcast content from two BSs and combine them together.
This can give the MSS the better quality of the broadcast application
content.
In this situation, the MSS does not need to perform the handover procedure.
I believe that the commonly same CID over all BSs for the MBS(Multimedia
Broadcast Service) is preferred.
Thanks again,
Yong Chang/Ph.D
Samsung Electronics
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Barber" <pbarber@broadbandmobiletech.com>
To: <stds-802-16@ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> Currently under 16e, you would re-map the Multicast CID from the old
Serving
> BS to a new Multicast CID on the new Serving BS at time of HO. This will
> either involve adding the MSS to an existing, appropriate Multicast CID on
> the new Serving BS or creating a new Multicast CID.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yong Chang" <yongchang@SAMSUNG.COM>
> To: <STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
>
>
> > No, it is not simple as you said.
> >
> > As I pointed out, the main merit of the MBS(Multimedia Broadcast
Service)
> is
> > coming from the mobility.
> > That is, even though the subscriber is moving anywhere, he/she can
> > successfully receive the corresponding MBS content from the BS without
any
> > interruption.
> >
> > If the subscriber is fixed, the method to provide MBS is very simple.
> Just
> > open a CID per each broadcast content, not multicast CID.
> > Multicast group is managed on IP layer with IGMP signaling. The service
> > authorization and the authentication are performed on IP layer after the
> > user authentication.
> > There procedure are behind of 802.16d. That's all.
> > If you said just within 16d. yes. it's very simple as I said above.
> >
> > My point is how to provide the MBS without any interruption by the
secure
> > manner when the MSS moves.
> > Again, the main rationale for broadcast service is found in 16e rather
> than
> > 16d.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Yong Chang/Ph.D
> > Samsung Electronics.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Al Dabagh, Baraa" <baraa.al.dabagh@intel.com>
> > To: <stds-802-16@ieee.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:12 AM
> > Subject: RE: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> >
> >
> > > There is no issue here.
> > >
> > > Here is how you do it in "d":
> > >
> > > - Create 2 multicast groups:
> > >
> > > 1- multimedia broadcast content (e.g., the one content is the
> pay-per-view
> > service like HBO and ESPN"
> > >
> > > 2- "free-per-view"
> > >
> > > - Associate only the MSS that are authorized for the "multimedia
> broadcast
> > content" service to multicast group 1
> > >
> > > - Associate all MSSs to the second one.
> > >
> > > Baraa Al-Dabagh
> > > BWD
> > > Intel Corporation
> > > baraa.al.dabagh@intel.com
> > > Phone: 408-545-6078
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Yong Chang
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 3:10 PM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > >
> > > First of all, we need to understand the characteristics of broadcast
> > service.
> > >
> > > Broadcast service is a kind of service that all MSS successfully
> > registered to the specific multimedia broadcast content(e.g., the one
> > content is the pay-per-view service like HBO and ESPN,, and the other
> > content is the free-per-view like CNN and advertisement, sort of public
> > broadcast service.) can receive the encrypted broadcast content anywhere
> > under the given time period.
> > >
> > > This definition gives us the following requirements:
> > >
> > > 1. MSS(Mobile SS) rather than SS is preferred because any moving
> > subscriber can receive this broadcast content.
> > > 2. The current broadcast CID is not appropriate for this broadcast
> service
> > because any MSS can not receive the specific broadcast content.
> > > 3. New identifier associating the broadcast application content with
one
> > transport connection on MAC layer is required.
> > > 4. Even though the MSS moves anywhere, the specific broadcast content
is
> > always successfully received by this MSS locating anywhere.
> > > 5. The broadcast service security mechanism applied to the service
> > authorization and authentication, content data encryption and so on
shall
> be
> > provided.
> > > 6. Since the specific multimedia broadcast content may require high
> > bandwidth over the air, sometimes above 64 kbps per each content, the DL
> > burst for broadcast service may be newly designed.
> > >
> > > Generally, I believe that the broadcast service feature is to be
> discussed
> > in 16e rather than 16d as a separated section. This issue is very
> challenge
> > to us..
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Yong Chang/Ph.D
> > > Samsung Electronics.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Johnston, Dj
> > > To: stds-802-16@ieee.org ; STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:13 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > >
> > > The issue of data broadcast needs to be understood in the context of
> what
> > CS service you are providing.
> > >
> > > Broadcast data (as opposed to broadcast management) is a feature of
the
> CS
> > service. So for example 802.1 defines broadcast behaviour within the
> context
> > of 802. This is not completely trivial, the behaviour of 802 broadcast
> data
> > on an 802 network is subject to a number of rules. The behavior at the
> > 802.16 MAC CPS layer is the multicast service.
> > >
> > > At present it is the job of the CS to map between the CS broadcast
> service
> > and the MAC CPS multicast service. I submitted a few comments about the
> need
> > to clarify the CS broadcast behavior in order to make both ends of the
> link
> > behave the same.
> > >
> > > So if a CS is presenting and 802 broadcast service, it needs to know
who
> > is in the 802 broadcast group and set up a multicast group to all these
> SSs.
> > You may be doing something different to the default. There may be VLANs
or
> > provider bridging or distinct, isolated 802 networks being served to
> users.
> > >
> > > So in 802.16, broadcast data is not broadcast data. It is a specially
> > managed aspect of the MAC CPS multicast service to provide an equivalent
> to
> > a CS layer broadcast service.
> > >
> > > If we want to go down a route of defining broadcast data in the MAC
CPS,
> > then we need to have a reason.
> > > E.G.
> > > A MAC CPS layer broadcast service will enable CS layer broadcast
> > service with lower on air management messaging
> > > or
> > > A MAC CPS layer broadcast service will prevent redundant
> specification
> > of broadcast behaviour in multiple CS specs.
> > >
> > > I don't see that either of these is true. Therefore I don't see a need
> for
> > a broadcast CID on the downlink.
> > > On the uplink, there is no broadcast. Data goes only to the BS, since
> that
> > is what the PHY layer supports. The CS is free to create a multicast CID
> to
> > provide that function.
> > >
> > > So I see no need to a broadcast CID in the MAC CPS.
> > >
> > > DJ
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Stanwood
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:48 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > > The basic situation is this:
> > >
> > > 1. The "Broadcast" connection that currently exists was intended for
> MAC
> > usage. There is now way to indicate a user service over it.
> > > 2. Multicast polling groups are just that, polling groups, not
> > connections. The "CID" is a replacement for the SS's Basic CID which is
> > actually used in maps a a shortened SS ID rather than really a
connection
> > ID.
> > > 3. Terminals are unaware whether a connection is multicast or
unicast,
> > with the exception of it having a different security association.
> > > 4. A broadcast DL connection would be established today by setting up
a
> > connection with the same parameters to all SS's. It's data would need
to
> be
> > transmitted in a region that all SS's could listen to, or be
re-broadcast
> to
> > sets of SS's if no such region existed as could possibly happen with AAS
> or
> > DL OFDMA.
> > >
> > > We should consider whether a true broadcast well-known connection
would
> be
> > useful. If so, I recommend putting it in 16e since it's an extra
feature.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > > From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pedro Neves
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:42 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > > The draft does not specify one broadcast and one multicast connection
> for
> > sending data from the BS to the SS's?
> > >
> > > As Vladimir said, multicast polling groups are used, but what about
data
> > transfer from the BS to the SS's? I thought CIDs were allocated for this
> > type of transmissions.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Pedro Neves
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Pedro Miguel Naia Neves
> > > Instituto Telecomunicações - http://www.av.it.pt
> > > Aveiro - Portugal
> > > Phone: +351 234 377 900
> > > Mobile: +351 96 618 75 82
> > > Homepage: http://daidalos.av.it.pt/~pneves
> > > MSN contact: etneves@hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > > From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Vladimir
Yanover
> > > Sent: quarta-feira, 21 de Abril de 2004 12:06
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > >
> > > Eyal,
> > > Seems that the standard does not preclude from sending data over
> broadcast
> > connection. Another question is whether
> > > we may establish a service flow associated with broadcast connection.
I
> > think, we cannot, then there is no way
> > > for data entering CS SAP to be routed to broadcast connection.
> > > By the way, multicast connections are not related to multicast
[polling]
> > groups.
> > > Vladimir
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eyal Verbin [mailto:everbin@AIRSPAN.COM]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:39 PM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> > > Subject: [STDS-802-16] Broadcast
> > > Section 6.1 of the standard states that " In addition to individually
> > addressed messages, messages may also be sent on multicast connections
> > (control messages and video distribution are examples of multicast
> > applications) as well as broadcast to all stations."
> > >
> > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but broadcast transmission is limited to MAC
> > management messages (MAPs, DCD,...) and can't be used to transfer data.
> > Therefore, the only way to broadcast data is to form a multicast group
> > containing all SS's
> > >
> > > Eyal
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-stds-802-16@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Don Leimer
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:26 PM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Clarification regarding SS power level
> control
> > > Only one more comment. The final 4dB of error will also be reduced by
> > subsequent BS commands, and relative error diminishes to +/- 0.5dB for
the
> > final error (relative to the BS's capability to measure power)
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Raja Banerjea [mailto:RBanerjea@PROXIM.COM]
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 9:14 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Clarification regarding SS power level
> control
> > > The power control method is a closed loop method where the Base
station
> > asks for further power control corrections if required. If the base
> station
> > requests the subscriber station in the RNG-RESP to increase the power
> level
> > by 30dB the SS should increase it by 30dB with a relative accuracy of
4dB.
> > > If the Base station is going to increase the power of the SS in 5
steps
> > and the BS requests the SS to increase the power by 8dB the SS will
> increase
> > it by 8dB with a relative accuracy of 4dB. In the subsequent RNG-RESP
> > message the BS instead of requesting a power increase of 8dB will
request
> > for 8dB+(relative accuracy). Therefore after each increase requested
from
> > the BS the relative accuracy should be 4dB.
> > > This assumes that the BS can make an accurate measurement of the SS's
> > power increase.
> > > Any comments ?
> > > Regards,
> > > -Raja
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Crozier, Eugene [mailto:Eugene_Crozier@SRTELECOM.COM]
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:26 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] Clarification regarding SS power level
> control
> > > My understanding of this is that the step size should be greater than
1
> dB
> > but less than 8 dB (I'd assumed for the relative accuracy that the 50%
of
> > the step size can be no more than 4 dB), but the number of steps is
based
> on
> > the step size and the relative accuracy to achieve the minimum control
> > range, so for 1 dB steps, the number of steps can be between 60 and 20
> > (30/0.5 and 30/1.5) for a 30 dB range, and for 8 dB step size the number
> of
> > steps between 8 and 3 for the 30 dB range.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Eugene Crozier
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eyal Verbin [mailto:everbin@AIRSPAN.COM]
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 8:22 AM
> > > To: STDS-802-16@listserv.ieee.org
> > > Subject: [STDS-802-16] Clarification regarding SS power level control
> > > Power level control for the OFDM PHY is defined in section 8.3.9.1:
> > > " For an SS not supporting subchannelization, the transmitter shall
> > support a monotonic power level control of 30 dB minimum. For an SS
> > supporting subchannelization, the transmitter shall support a monotonic
> > power level control of 50 dB minimum. The minimum step size shall be no
> more
> > than 1 dB. The relative accuracy of the power control mechanism is
+/-50%
> of
> > the step size in dB, but no more than 4 dB. As an example, for a step
size
> > of 5 dB the relative accuracy is 2.5 dB. For a BS, the transmitter shall
> > support a monotonic power level control of 10 dB minimum."
> > > Looking at the SS (subchannelization) for example, it is possible to
go
> > from Min power to Max power either in 5 steps of 8 dB or in a single
step
> of
> > 50dB. In the first option the accumulated offset can reach 5*4dB (20dB)
> > wheras in the second option the tolerance is limited to 4dB.
> > > Does anyone have a more clear interpretation of this text?
> > > Eyal Verbin
> > >
> > >
> > > This mail passed through mail.alvarion.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ********
> > > This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
> > > PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals &
> computer
> > viruses.
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ********
> > > This mail was sent via mail.alvarion.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ********
> > > This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
> > > PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals &
> computer
> > viruses.
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ********
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>