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Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition of HR-MS DC and Forwarding to Network



Dear Haiguang, Anh Tuan, Sungcheol, Eldad, and all,

Thank you very much for your participation of the discussion. As Anh 
Tuan and Eldad suggested, in order to avoid confusion, we may do not go 
deeper in discussion of technical solutions.

As this stage of discussion, I'd like to prepare following draft 
consensus text regarding HR-MS direct communication and HR-MS Forwarding 
to Network. I will include them in a contribution of proposal of 
harmonized text for discussion in 2nd CC of DC RG.

***[Begin of draft consensus text]***

In HR-MS direct communication, the two HR-MSs are the source and the 
sink of data, and the data packets are passed from upper layers to MAC 
at the source HR-MS and back to upper layers at the sink HR-MS.

In HR-MS Forwarding to Network, a HR-MS forwards user data and control 
signaling between a HR-MS and an HR-infrastructure station in a way that 
the user data and control signaling do not go through higher layer. The 
origination and termination of the user data and control signaling are 
at the HR-MS and the HR-infrastructure station respectively and vice 
versa. 

***[End of draft consensus text]***
 
SRD is also refereed when I prepare the above text. If you have comments 
on the above draft consensus text, please reply this email, or/and 
discuss it on the 2nd CC of DC RG. You are appreciated very much.



Best regards,
Mingtuo


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Wang Haiguang <hwang@I2R.A-STAR.EDU.SG>
Reply-To: Wang Haiguang <hwang@I2R.A-STAR.EDU.SG>
Date:          Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:13:27 +0800

Hi, Anh-Tuan, Ming-Tuo and all,

Please see my comments inline. 

Regards.

Haiguang


-----Original Message-----
From: Anh Tuan Hoang [mailto:mbox.hoang@gmail.com]
Sent: Sun 4/24/2011 9:48 AM
To: STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition of HR-
MS DC and Forwarding to Network
 
Hi all,

I just want to modify part of my previous email.

Best regards,
Anh Tuan

2011/4/24 Anh Tuan Hoang <mbox.hoang@gmail.com>

>  Dear Ming-Tuo and all,
>
> Thank you for the discussions. I am not responding inline, as I only 
have
> the following general comments:
>
> 1. When we attempt to define some capabilities like HR-MS DC or FTN, 
the
> only source we should refer to is the SRD. To me, the SRD basically 
says:
>
> - HR-MS DC means two HR-MSs can talk to each other *without going 
through* an
> infrastructure station.
>
> - HR-MS FTN means one HR-MS can forward data/control messages between
> another HR-MS and an infrastructure station.
>
> 2. When we are trying to give a "deeper/clearer definition", like, how
> similar FTN is to relay, and how many hop/how many forwarded HR-MSs 
can be
> supported, we have actually delved into the "technical solutions". And 
this
> leads to the confusion because different parties may, subconsciously 
:-),
> give their "deeper definition" that just aligns with their "proposed
> solution". I guess this is also what Eldad tried to to suggest when 
saying
> "...*The amount of similarity will be determined by technical
> contributions."*
> So I suggest, for definitions, we should aim at somethings very close 
to
> (or just use) the SRD. We then can have a discussion topic on, say, 
"Pros
> and cons of implementing DC/FTN based on xyz approaches...". This is 
where
> the more details can be analyzed.
>
> Best regards,
> Anh Tuan
>
>
> 2011/4/23 Ming-Tuo ZHOU <mingtuo@nict.com.sg>
>
>>  Dear Hai-Guang, Eledad, Sungcheol, and all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much for discussion. I have several questions: 
question 4
>> and 5.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hai-Guang, I am not clear about multi-hop in forwarding to network 
and
>> numbers of HR-MS supported in Forwarding to network, could you please 
see my
>> comments/question and make me more clear. Thank you a lot.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mingtuo
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Zeira, Eldad [mailto:Eldad.Zeira@INTERDIGITAL.COM]
>> *Sent:* 2011?4?23? 4:28
>>
>> *To:* STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition 
of
>> HR-MS DC and Forwarding to Network
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Sungcheol, please see my opinion on your comment to question 3 
below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Eldad
>>
>> Office   +1 631 622 4134
>>
>> Mobile +1 631 428 4052
>>
>> Based in NY area
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Chang, Sungcheol [mailto:scchang@etri.re.kr]
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2011 4:41 AM
>> *To:* STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition 
of
>> HR-MS DC and Forwarding to Network
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see my comments to question 3.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sungcheol Chang, Ph.D.
>>
>> Mobile Access Technology Research Team, ETRI
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Zeira, Eldad [mailto:Eldad.Zeira@INTERDIGITAL.COM]
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2011 2:43 AM
>> *To:* STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition 
of
>> HR-MS DC and Forwarding to Network
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mingtuo, Haiguang
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for this discussion. I mostly agree with Haiguang's opinion 
but
>> have one question for clarification and several suggestions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eldad
>>
>> Office   +1 631 622 4134
>>
>> Mobile +1 631 428 4052
>>
>> Based in NY area
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wang Haiguang [mailto:hwang@I2R.A-STAR.EDU.SG]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 8:56 AM
>> To: STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition of 
HR-MS
>> DC and Forwarding to Network
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Ming-Tuo and all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much to Ming-Tuo bring this topic to the group.
>>
>> It is very important to have a common understanding these
>>
>> issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> I try to reply the questions based on my understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see my answer inline.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>>
>>
>> Haiguang
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Ming-Tuo ZHOU [mailto:mingtuo@nict.com.sg]
>>
>> Sent: Thu 4/21/2011 6:20 PM
>>
>> To: STDS-802-16@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>
>> Subject: [STDS-802-16] [802.16n][DC] Discussion on definition of HR-
MS DC
>> and Forwarding to Network
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear 16n participants,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like to trigger discussion of definition of HR-MS direct 
communication
>> and HR-MS forwarding to network, since from many discussions it seems 
there
>> are some confusion regarding them. In my opinion, it is necessary to 
have a
>> clear common understanding of these two functions for development of
>> technical details in a more smooth way. Anyone is welcome to bring 
his/her
>> understanding of these two functions by replying this email. I hope 
after
>> several rounds of email discussion, we can achieve some consensus 
regarding
>> these two functions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The discussion may be started by answering follow questions:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. what is HR-MS direct communication (DC)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Haiguang: HR-MS direct communication means, the two HR-MSs involved 
in the
>> communication are the producer and consumer of the data packets. That 
is,
>> the source HR-MS pass the data packet down from upper layer to MAC 
and the
>> destination HR-MS pass the packet to upper layer from MAC after 
receiving
>> from the air.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clarification: the producer and consumer here are from the view of 
MAC. It
>> does not mean the packet is originated from the source HR-MS and 
terminated
>> at the destination HR-MS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eldad: suggest the following text (editorial cleanup, I think it 
means the
>> same)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The two HR-MS that are in direct communications with each other are 
the
>> source and the sink of data. Packets are passed from upper layers to 
MAC at
>> the source and back to upper layers at the sink HR-MS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. what is HR-MS forwarding to network (FTN)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Haiguang: HR-MS forwarding means the forwarding HR-MS either forwards 
the
>> data packet to HR-BS or to the HR-MSs that access the network via the
>> forwarding HR-MS.
>>
>>
>>
>> The forwarded packet will not be passed to upper layer. Instead, it 
is
>> forwarded to next hop at MAC layer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eldad: again I agree with the principle and suggest the following
>> wording:
>>
>>
>>
>> An HR-MS that forwards data to infrastructure node or to another
>> forwarding HR-MS that is attached to an infrastructure node (if 
multi-hop is
>> supported) does so without passing any data to or from higher layers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ming-Tuo: Haiguang (and all), do you think multi-hop HR-MS forwarding 
is
>> allowed supported in 16n?

Haiguang: I am not sure how complex it will be. 

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. what's difference between HR-MS DC, HR-MS FTN, and HR relay/local
>> forwarding?
>>
>>
>>
>> Haiguang: The differences are:
>>
>> * For HR-MS DC, at the source HR-MS, the data packets are from upper 
layer
>> and are passed to upper layer protocol at the destination HR-MS.
>>
>> * For HR-MS FTN, the data packet is forwarded to next hop at MAC 
layer.
>> The data packets are not handled by upper layer protocol. HR-MS who 
forwards
>> data packet is still an HR-MS. It only has a very simple relay 
function and
>> can only support very few nodes, one or two.
>>
>>
>>
>> >From other HR-MSs' view, HR-MS performing the relay function is 
still an
>> HR-MS.
>>
>>
>>
>> HR relay is a kind of infrastructure station designed for the purpose 
of
>> relay. It is complex and like a BS. It is designed to support many MS 
in
>> network access.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Local forwarding means the infrastructure station between MS and BS
>> forwards data packets from downstream HR-station to destination HR-MS
>> without passing it to upstream infrastructure stations.
>>
>>
>>
>> A general case is a HR-RS forwards the data packets from one of its 
HR-MS
>> (source) to another HR-MS which is the destination.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eldad:
>>
>> - Not sure what is the meaning of "From other HR-MSs' view, HR-MS
>> performing the relay function is still an HR-MS." - could you please
>> clarify?
>>
>>
>>
>> - >From the SRD, an HR-RS is " A relay that complies with the
>> requirements for relays in this amendment". This is an amendment to 
802.16n
>> or 2009, which means that an HR-RS is an RS or ARS as amended by 
802.16n. I
>> don't think we need to define it any further, although we'll need to 
specify
>> how to implement the requirements we have agreed to in the SRD.
>>
>>
>>
>> Haiguang:
>>
>> My meaning is that the HR-MS should aware that the MS forwards data
>> control for it is an HR-MS. It is not a relay station.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sungcheol Chang:
>>
>>
>>
>> From the discussions and the definitions in the 16n SRD, the 
definitions
>> of direct communication and HR-MS forwarding are clearly different in
>> respect of data flow.
>>
>>
>>
>> But I still confuse that the technical difference between HR-MS 
forwarding
>> and HR-RS functionalities.
>>
>> Even though HR-RS is an infrastructure node and HR-MS is a user 
terminal
>> in nature, I think their names are not important. If devices should 
receive
>> packets transmitted by HR-MS, a receiving function within devices is 
to
>> receive the packets. Whatever the devices are called like HR-MS or 
HR-RS.
>> Their receiving functionalities are similar in nature.
>>
>> I want to know what the technical differences are because we are in
>> developing the AWD text proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> What happen if we replace 1) HR-MS with HR-RS 2) forwarding HR-MS 
with
>> HR-RS in the following definition?
>>
>> The definition of forwarding: "An HR-MS that forwards data to
>> infrastructure node or to another forwarding HR-MS that is attached 
to an
>> infrastructure node (if multi-hop is supported) does so without 
passing any
>> data to or from higher layers."
>>
>>
>>
>> What happen if we assume a forwarding HR-MS as a HR-RS serving one
>> sub-ordinate HR-MS only? Under this assumption, please list the 
technical
>> difference between a forwarding HR-MS and a HR-RS serving one sub-
ordinate
>> HR-MS only. Personally, if we achieve a forwarding HR-MS 
functionality with
>> simple modification of HR-RS including signaling procedures, I prefer 
the
>> modification rather than defining new function and transmission 
schemes
>>
>>
>>
>> Also I'd like to know what forwarding HR-MS is more simple than HR-
RS. I
>> understand that HR-RS has more functionalities than HR-BS and HR-RS 
is a
>> infrastructure node. There are two views about complexity. The one is
>> hardware complexity because HR-RS is designed to serve multiple HR-
MS. This
>> complexity is not important issue in respect of functionalities. The 
other
>> is functional complexity. HR-RS support two interfaces for relay 
operation:
>> 1) interface between HR-BS and HR-RS, 2) interface between HR-MS and 
HR-RS.
>> It's clear that forwarding HR-MS has two interfaces also. The relay
>> specification describes relay function in HR-RS, which is required to 
relay
>> data and packets to HR-BS or HR-MS. Even though more than HR-BS
>> functionalities, the HR-RS functionalities are selected ones required 
for
>> relay operation. From this understanding, please list what forwarding 
HR-MS
>> is more simple than HR-RS. It will help me to understand what the 
forwarding
>> function is.
>>
>>
>>
>> *[Eldad] the SRD states clearly that forwarding is a functionality of 
the
>> HR-MS not the HR-RS (see excerpt below). Obviously there will be
>> similarities between the forwarding function and a relay function as 
both
>> support 2 interfaces. That doesn't mean that the two are the same. 
The
>> amount of similarity will be determined by technical contributions. 
For
>> example only, frame structure can resemble relays (i.e. transmission 
in both
>> UL and DL zones) or be in UL only (as some proposed).*
>> 6.1.3.2  HR-MS forwarding to network
>>
>> HR-MS forwarding is defined as the case where the origination and
>> termination of data are at the HR-MS and network respectively and 
vice
>> versa.
>>
>> HR-Network shall support HR-MS forwarding of user data and control
>> signaling between HR-MS and HR-BS and between HR-MS and HR-RS.  The 
control
>> signaling and data transmission for the HR-MS to HR-MS direct link 
shall at
>> least be capable of operating within the frequency band that the HR-
BS
>> operates.
>>
>> An association establishment shall be supported.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ming-Tuo: Haiguang, I am not so clear bout  "It only has a very 
simple
>> relay function and can only support very few nodes, one or two."  -- 
you
>> mean in Forwarding to Network, the a data packet can only be 
forwarded to
>> only one or two HR-MSs? Eldad, Sungcheol and all, what's your 
opinion?

Haiguang: I mean the number of HR-MSs attached to one forwarding HR-MS 
could be
          limited. However, there could be many HR-MS within a cell 
perform the
          forwarding function. That's my consideration. It may help in 
simplifying
          the design of HR-MS forwarding protocol. But if we can come 
out
          elegant solution that one forwarding HR-MS can support many 
HR-MSs, I am
          fine with that.   



>> (Ming-Tuo) 4. Is HR-MS forwarding to network is allowed in case that 
both
>> HR-MS and the forwarding HR-MS are out of coverage of any HR 
infrastructure
>> station?

Haiguang: For this point, I have to say that I did no see this case from 
the
          use case discussion. 


>>
>>
>>
>> (Ming-Tuo) 5. In "Forwarding to network", what the meaning of 
"Network" -
>> if there is no backbone connect, is the "Network" there?
>>
Haiguang: I think "forwarding to the network" refers to data flow 
direction,
          from HR-MS --> HR-BS/HR-RS or other stations. But if it may 
cause
          confusion, we can replace it with a better terms.  
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, the following is expected to be made:
>>
>>
>>
>> [Consensus:                                          ]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ming-Tuo Zhou
>>
>>
>>
>> 16n DC RG co-chair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>