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Re: [802-11WG] untestable PICS items



There are references, as I previously stated.  Most of those, who argue the most or are influential, know they exist, but can not use them to support their arguments (and in many case override their positions), which is why others are left wondering if there are references.


A PICS Proforma cannot state anything that is not supported by the specification to which it is part or when it is a stand alone document.

In this sense the PICS Proforma contains redundant information and is not needed.

"The ICS proforma is a normative document to express in compact from the static conformance requirements of a specification."   ITU-T Recommendation X.296


David Cypher
========================
At 09:08 PM 3/24/2008, Jim Petranovich wrote:
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector --- David,

I am glad you are bringing this up, and I hope either someone will find a reference for these PICS proforma "requirements", a committee will formalize the requirements, or we will abandon them.

I do not believe the PICS to be valuable, but perhaps someone has found otherwise.

Jim Petranovich

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 1:23 PM, David Cypher <david.cypher@nist.gov> wrote:
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

For example,
  There is no IEEE 802 requirement that a standard contain a PICS Proforma and is there for not a valid reason for a NO vote for a standard not containing one.
[RR] Very interesting … thanks for this clarification.

  These is no IEEE 802 that mandates a PICS Proforma question for every "Shall" or "may"
[RR] I had heard this, but have also heard the contrary.

  There is no requirement that every PICS Proforma question be testable.  As Bob O'Hara stated.
[RR] This is where the issue gets interesting in my opinion.  I'd love to get a good handle on this so I know how to write the standard and PICS items properly.

For the IEEE 802 statements:
You see, it is very easy to prove me wrong in my statements.  For those who tell you that the statements I have made are false, only have to show there existence.  I have asked some those people who claim that my statements are false, but they are unable to produce them. 

You know it is quite easy to verify this for yourself, so that you know better when confronted and no not have to accept my word.  There is a list of the ruling documents from IEEE-SA and IEEE 802 and most working groups within 802 have a list too.  If PICS does not show up in any of these, then I guess my statements are true.  If not, you will have found and be able to site the referenced document(s) and clause(s) for myself and others to know.  I wish you well on your search.

A counter example to a non-existence statement is to show existence. 

David Cypher
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