Re: Going the distance
- To: "Grow, Bob" <bob.grow@xxxxxxxxx>, HSSG <stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx>
- Subject: Re: Going the distance
- From: Rich Taborek <rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:09:24 -0700
- Organization: Transcendata, Inc.
- References: <98B0F9BA93FAD211AC4D00A0C95D19F25C2100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Reply-To: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Sender: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bob,
I can accept your ammendment to my motion as friendly in general. One specific
point is the choice of a single distance 3 km instead of 2 km. I'd like to
solicit comments from others as to whether this distinction (BY ITSELF!) would
make the motion harder to attain 75% support. If others agree that the specific
change from 2-3 km to 3 km is OK I will accept it as friendly.
Howard?
--
"Grow, Bob" wrote:
> Rich:
>
> I am in support of your compromise if with some discussion the Study Group
> appears as deadlocked as the Ad Hoc is. To expedite matters, you should
> phrase your motion as an objective, not as guidelines for defining an
> objective. (We would still have to vote on the objective after voting on the
> motion you outline below.) The third distance should only include one
> length.
>
> Move to adopt as an HSSG objective:
>
> x. Support premises cabling plant distances as specified in ISO/IEC 11801
> a. 100 m for horizontal cabling
> b. 550 m for vertical cabling
> c. 3 km for campus cabling
>
> --Bob Grow
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Taborek [mailto:rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 5:15 PM
> To: BRIAN_LEMOFF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; HSSG
> Subject: Re: Going the distance
>
> Brian,
>
> Please keep in mind that my proposed motion to use ISO/IEC premises cabling
> standards is based on our inability to overwhelmingly agree (75%) to
> distance
> objectives. Our best attempts at a motion failed in Coeur d'Alene. The
> distance ad
> hoc has reached no better consensus, and I'm afraid that Jonathan Thatcher's
> proposed process is too convoluted to set clear objectives. I'm araid that
> blending
> in the myriad market requirements for 10 GbE, 1 GbE specifications for a
> specific
> fiber type, requirements from 1 GbE links which greatly exceed the standard
> and use
> non standard (enhanced) cable and/or components, and the capabilities of any
> proposed 10 GbE schemes serve only to make any specific distance decisions
> harder to
> make and attain the concensus of 75% of the group. Remember also that we're
> a study
> group, and that you'll get your change to get your specific 'better'
> distance into
> the standard when we actually have a standards project to get it into.
>
> As an individual straw poll, would you as an individual IEEE voter, vote
> against the
> following motion, if made?
>
> That the distance objective support the premises cabling plant distances
> as
> specified in ISO/IEC 11801
>
> The distances supported in ISO/IEC 11801 are:
>
> 100 m for horizontal cabling
> 550 m for vertical cabling
> 2-3 km for campus cabling
>
> It is assumed that the 10 GbE standard will exceed these objectives quite
> handily as
> was the case for GbE.
>
> --
>
> BRIAN_LEMOFF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Paul:
> >
> > I believe that the WWDM approach that we have presented, when used
> > with uncooled, unisolated, reduced spec (on SMSR, linearity, RIN)
> DFBs
> > will cost equal or less than the serial 10G FP laser approach that
> > Lucent has proposed for 2km, and significantly less than the isolated
> > DFB approach that they have proposed for 15km. This would support
> > ~300m on 62.5 micron fiber, and ~10km on SMF. To push this approach
> > to 15km may involve tightening the SMSR or RIN spec which will
> > significantly increase the cost (since much of the low-cost nature of
> > the approach depends upon using low-cost DFBs).
> >
> > I realize that there is an ongoing debate about relative cost, but it
> > would be a shame to set the objectives at 2km and 15km, when there is
> > a potentially very low-cost solution that can go 10km. I have no
> > problem with a 2km and 10km objective, since I believe we can satisfy
> > both with a single cost-competitive solution.
> >
> > I realize that Rich Taborek and others have criticized PMD suppliers
> > (such as HP and Lucent) on this reflector for suggesting objectives,
> > based on what each of our solutions can handle, but I don't think we
> > can afford to ignore it either. I don't deny that I favor 300m on
> > installed base MMF and 10km on SMF in large part because that is what
> > our WWDM module can support. I have no problem backing off on these
> > (say to 200m and 5km) if it allows alternative PMDs to be considered.
> > Lucent wants 2km (not 3km) to be an objective so that their serial FP
> > laser module is not excluded. I'd like 10km (and not 15km) for the
> > same reason (although I believe we're still competitive at 2km).
> >
> > Distance objectives should reflect what the customers need, but
> should
> > be influenced by what the available technologies can achieve.
> >
> > -Brian Lemoff
> > HP Labs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> > Subject: Re: Going the distance
> > Author: Non-HP-pbottorf (pbottorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) at
> HP-PaloAlto,mimegw2
> > Date: 6/30/99 3:24 PM
> >
> > Bruce:
> >
> > I support your outlook. We already have 5-10 km with gigabit. Supporting
> > these distances is necessary to support the installed base. Since the
> > technology cut-off point is around 20 km and since a standard MAN distance
> > is 15 km I'd prefer a slightly more aggressive objective of 15 km. This
> > would still give reasonable design margin. I also believe lower cost
> > technology exits below 2.5 km motivating a 2 km specification. We could
> > either specify a single 15 km objective which covers all the applications
> > with a higher component cost or 2 km and 15 km each with a different price
> > point.
> >
> > I would like to see further extension into the MAN. GigE is selling day
> > with reaches over 50 km. The next standard distance is 40 km. I've heard
> > this distance was chosen to match the spacing of microwave towers. With
> the
> > 40 km distance I believe we would have all that is necessary to build
> Metro
> > networks.
> >
> > The three standard distances on SMF would be 2, 15, and 40 km. Each of
> > these ranges I believe falls into a different technology with a different
> > price point. If anyone has a technology which can do all three at the 2 km
> > price then all the better.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > At 09:13 AM 6/30/99 -0700, Bruce_Tolley@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >The point has been made before that today customers are already going 5
> to
> > 10 Km
> > >with 1000BASE-LX. There should be no debate that it is a market
> > requirement to
> > >go 5 to 10 km with 10 GbE.
> > >
> > >While I am willing to consider accepting a conservative 2 to 3 km goal
> as
> > the
> > >official goal of the project, we need to acknowledge that this is a
> > >conservative goal and, as we get on with the work of the project , we
> should
> > >investigate whether we can stretch this goal..
> > >
> > >Bruce Tolley
> > >3Com Corporation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Rich Taborek <rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on 06/29/99 05:01:32 PM
> > >
> > >Please respond to rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >Sent by: Rich Taborek <rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >
> > >
> > >To: Howard Frazier <hfrazier@xxxxxxxxx>, HSSG
> <stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx>
> > >cc: (Bruce Tolley/HQ/3Com)
> > >Subject: Re: Going the distance
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Howard,
> > >
> > >I will gladly accept your suggestion of removing the portion of the
> > >motion in parenthesis as a friendly amendment post-haste given your
> > >support of this motion as a seconder.
> > >
> > >- Rich
> > >
> > >Howard Frazier wrote:
> > >
> > >> The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of adopting the
> > >> 802.3z link distance objectives for 10 Gig. We should remember that
> > >> we are still in the study group phase, trying to scope out a project.
> > >> We can always adjust the objectives later.
> > >>
> > >> Let me therefore state my support for Rich's proposed motion:
> > >>
> > >> > "Support the premises cabling plant distances as specified in
> > >> > ISO/IEC 11801"
> > >> >
> > >> > The distances supported in ISO/IEC 11801 are:
> > >> >
> > >> > 100 m for horizontal cabling (applicable to copper, MMF, SMF)
> > >> >
> > >> > 550 m for vertical cabling: (applicable to SMF and possibly MMF)
> > >> >
> > >> > 2-3 km for campus cabling: (applicable to SMF)
> > >>
> > >> Rich, I would encourage you to drop the parenthesis.
> > >>
> > >> If we adopt this objective, we can make progress on the rest of the
> > >> work we need to do as a study group. As was demonstrated in 802.3z,
> > >> we will need to review the objectives periodically, and revise them
> > >> if there is consensus to do so.
> > >>
> > >> Howard Frazier
> > >> Cisco Sytems, Inc.
> > >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Richard Taborek Sr. Tel: 650 210 8800 x101 or 408 370 9233
> > >Principal Architect Fax: 650 940 1898 or 408 374 3645
> > >Transcendata, Inc. Email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >1029 Corporation Way http://www.transcendata.com
> > >Palo Alto, CA 94303-4305 Alt email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Paul A. Bottorff, Director Switching Architecture
> > Bay Architecture Laboratory
> > Nortel Networks, Inc.
> > 4401 Great America Parkway
> > Santa Clara, CA 95052-8185
> > Tel: 408 495 3365 Fax: 408 495 1299 ESN: 265 3365
> > email: pbottorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> --
>
> Best Regards,
> Rich
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard Taborek Sr. Tel: 650 210 8800 x101 or 408 370 9233
> Principal Architect Fax: 650 940 1898 or 408 374 3645
> Transcendata, Inc. Email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 1029 Corporation Way http://www.transcendata.com
> Palo Alto, CA 94303-4305 Alt email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
Best Regards,
Rich
-------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Taborek Sr. Tel: 650 210 8800 x101 or 408 370 9233
Principal Architect Fax: 650 940 1898 or 408 374 3645
Transcendata, Inc. Email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1029 Corporation Way http://www.transcendata.com
Palo Alto, CA 94303-4305 Alt email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx