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Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] AW: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

I wasn't sure what interface was meant by MAC interface. We usually have two kinds of exposed (meaning real physical interfaces with at least electrical signal characteristics defined and sometimes mechanical defined) interfaces we talk about. 

From the context it sounds like the MII is what was meant. 

The usual use case for exposing an MII is either to allow for a variety of PHYs to be attached (e.g. optical PHYs for different types of optical media) and to allow for PHYs that require more space, more cost or different technologies to implement than are available on the chip that implements the MAC. For 10 Mb/s single twisted pair, it isn't clear to me that this use case applies. 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 9:14 AM, George Zimmerman <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Stefan this is a good start.

Generally, this is more detail than I’d like to see written in an objective (just my opinion).

It is generally not a good idea to quote out environments unless it is expected to be an exposed interface, and it isn’t clear that the MAC interface, not exposed, is going to the environment, so I’m unclear exactly what is meant “work under industrial and automotive environmental conditions.” (do you mean that the existing MAC/PHY interfaces do not work under these?  If so, a presentation on the subject would be useful).  Usually PCB layouts and packages are out of scope as well (but everyone considers them in makingthe interface).  I think the relevant part on package size/cost is the reduced pin count, so, with that in mind, how about:

 

Define a reduced pin-count MAC/PHY interface including an optional management interface.

 

(Geoff/Pat, others, “MAC/PHY interface” probably isn’t the right term, but I don’t have time to look it up right now.  Please suggest the right term, assuming we get consensus around this form.)

 

-george

 

From: Stefan Buntz [mailto:stefan.buntz@DAIMLER.COM]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:19 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] AW: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

Hi Georg,

 

 

A first „quick and dirty“ proposal for an objective:

 

Develop an specification for a 10Mbps MAC-Interface for industrial and automotive applications.

The MAC interface shall work under industrial and automotive environmental conditions and shall have reduced pin count

to accommodate small package solutions and simple PCB layout solutions. The MAC interface shall include data line as well

as an optional management interface.

 

-          Is this somehow what you expect?

-          Is this doable under the intended study group/task force?

 

Regards,

Stefan

------------------------------------------

Stefan Buntz

Mercedes-Benz Cars Development, Daimler AG

Group Research & Advanced Engineering

Safeguarding Hard & Software 

HPC: U059 – Dep.: RD/EEQ

 

Phone: +49 731 505-2089

Mobil: +49 176 30 90 51 44

Fax: +49 711 305 216 45 95

E-Mail: stefan.buntz@xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Address for visitors:

Buildung 10

Room 3.2.022

Wilhelm-Runge-Str. 11

D-89081 Ulm

Germany

------------------------------------------

 

Von: George Zimmerman [mailto:george@CMEPHYCONSULTING.COM]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. August 2016 19:59
An: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

Yong – you raise an interesting point about the MAC interface.

With cost being a primary objective, and the line interface only requiring 1 pair, does it make sense to set as an objective defining a reduced pin count MAC/PHY interface (to reduce test/package costs)? If so, how would you state it.

 

From: Yong Kim [mailto:000006d33765285e-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 6:25 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

I agree.  And because I agree, I would like to share some observations.

 

1. CAN is channelized.   With this I mean every payload for the CAN network is predefined -- analogy is telecom links.

2. Ethernet is packetized.  With this I mean layers of headers define what payload means for each layer.

3. If the most inefficient Ethernet is comparable to CAN (roughly) - then it is good.  This project should not be created to overlap with widely accepted and deployed technology.

4. Ethernet 10M would provide benefit where CAN falls short-- and CAN-FD as well -- providing much higher bandwidth.

5. And Ethernet provides network infrastructure for any practical speed link and allow them to all network together -- the reason for these use cases to move to Ethernet.   And potentially eliminate overlay network segments (BW aggregation) if admin domain allows for the aggregation.

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 3:21 AM, Stefan Buntz <stefan.buntz@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi David,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Looking on your example it is quite clear that eliminating the padding fields is not really as beneficial even for 10Mbps, especially if you look into real architectures, where

multiple hops, disturbing traffic and pre-emption/TSN will have much more influence on the overall latency then 300bits shorter messages – so maybe not worth the work to do.

 

so I agree: probably for the 10Mbps project not an needed point - eliminating the padding field alone is not gaining much efficiency.

 

I think on a short term perspective there are other points which are more relevant, e.g. what kind of MAC Interface should be used for 10Mbps on Single Pair, I don’t

know a clever sleek and simple solution for that?

 

 

however on the long term and very general perspective:

CAN has been so successful because it is much more efficient for control traffic. This is simply due to the fact that the headers are much simpler and shorter.

If I look on our communication structure/frame it will took 92µs (1Mbps CAN) to transmit 1byte of application data with a data rate of 1Mbps (or ~90µs for CANfd[500k/2M]).
If I take the same 1byte of data and transmit it via Ethernet/IP on a 10Mbps network (if I have a network I will have one switch at least) it will take minimum:

- 83µs (16µs for the cut-through switch and 67µs transmission delay for the 2nd link) or

- 134µs (if you have a stor’n’forward switch: 2 x transmission delay = 2 x 67µs)

So 10x the data rate but nearly same transmission time…

 

But to define a new (and compatible) MAC frame format with high efficiency for control data with low payload I think this is quite another story then what we are intend to do…

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Stefan Buntz

 

------------------------------------------

Stefan Buntz

Mercedes-Benz Cars Development, Daimler AG

Group Research & Advanced Engineering

Safeguarding Hard & Software 

HPC: U059 – Dep.: RD/EEQ

 

Phone: +49 731 505-2089

Mobil: +49 176 30 90 51 44

Fax: +49 711 305 216 45 95

E-Mail: stefan.buntz@xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Address for visitors:

Buildung 10

Room 3.2.022

Wilhelm-Runge-Str. 11

D-89081 Ulm

Germany

------------------------------------------

 

Von: David D. Brandt [mailto:ddbrandt@ra.rockwell.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. August 2016 23:34
An: Buntz, Stefan (059)
Cc: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: RE: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

Stefan,

 

The effect of reduced latency is an application question requiring knowledge of the architecture. As my slides showed, you can’t estimate the improvement from the PHY alone. Likely it is not 2x, but some smaller gain.

 

Some thoughts:

 

For an individual control message, you could reduce the entire transmission from  84 octets (672 bits or 67.2 us @ 10 M) to 39 octets (312 bits or 31.2 us @ 10 M), saving 36 us.

 

In a braking example:

120 km/hr,  33 m/s, 33 um/us

33 um/us * 36 us = 1188 um = 1.2 mm (reduced travel before brake command is applied)

 

Of course, real architectures are more complex.

 

If you had cut-through, then the forwarding decisions along the path would be made before we reached the pad field in the frame. So the 36 us would only be saved at the last receiver. Cut-through should know the destination before forwarding (20 octets or 16us).

 

Store and forward time would increase latency based on the number of hops multiplied by the packet size.

 

If there were packets in progress along the path, you could be delayed by the maximum packet time at each hop. Maybe your brake packet could have the highest priority, but the lower priority transmission may already have begun.

 

You could have pre-emption to limit the effect of the lower priority traffic. Then you’d have up to 127 octets  / 102 us on each hop before preemption (minimum fragment is 64 octets).

 

The network could be scheduled, but unless the brake command is the only traffic, it will have to wait for its turn in the schedule. Maybe there are 4 brake command (one to each wheel) that are sent in a periodic schedule, then one of them has to be last in the schedule.

 

Possibly the brakes should all be applied at once or the vehicle twists. Maybe this is more important than absolute lowest latency. You might then consider accurate time synchronization to each wheel and also bounding the latency of the commands. Various methods are possible to gain this determinism.

 

 

Regards,

 

David D. Brandt
Senior Principal Engineer
Rockwell Automation - Advanced Technology
1201 South Second Street
Milwaukee, WI 53204-2496
414.382.4309

 

From: stefan.buntz@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:stefan.buntz@daimler.com]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 5:23 AM
To: David D. Brandt <ddbrandt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: AW: draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

Hi David,

 

thanks for your presentations.

Especially the discussion of the reduced frame size is very interesting.

 

some points/remarks/question:

-        I think for (at least) some of the applications the overall transmission delay of the message is as well very important (control applications).

Any additional input on how reduced frame size would influence this would be interesting as well.

-        For the control applications as well we have to consider that the overall latency of the network  is
bigger than the individual transmission time (number of hops or better number of switches)

-        For calculating this overall latency: Can anyone (maybe of the semiconductor suppliers) give an assumption of the time a 10/100/1000Mbps store’n’forward switch would
need for a frame (only the switching from MAC to MAC)? Is this significantly different between the speed grades? Is this different for a cut-through switch?
(Or is the dominant factor the “store” part of the frame (which is nearly equal to the individual transmission time per link) and switching is negligible?)

 

 

Regards,

Stefan

 

PS: unfortunately I am not sure if I can join this evening…

 

------------------------------------------

Stefan Buntz

Mercedes-Benz Cars Development, Daimler AG

Group Research & Advanced Engineering

Safeguarding Hard & Software 

HPC: U059 – Dep.: RD/EEQ

 

Phone: +49 731 505-2089

Mobil: +49 176 30 90 51 44

Fax: +49 711 305 216 45 95

E-Mail: stefan.buntz@xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Address for visitors:

Buildung 10

Room 3.2.022

Wilhelm-Runge-Str. 11

D-89081 Ulm

Germany

------------------------------------------

 

Von: David D. Brandt [mailto:ddbrandt@RA.ROCKWELL.COM]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. August 2016 07:05
An: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: Re: [802.3_10SPE] draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

George,

 

Here are the following:

 

Industrial Automation Bit Error Rate

brandt_082216_10SPE_01_adhoc

 

Reduced Minimum Frame Size

brandt_082216_10SPE_02_adhoc

 

I am also enclosing a third submission, updated from the 802.24 version as requested.

Industrial Automation and Emerging Single-pair Ethernet

brandt_082216_10SPE_03_adhoc

 

 

Regards,

 

David D. Brandt
Senior Principal Engineer
Rockwell Automation - Advanced Technology
1201 South Second Street
Milwaukee, WI 53204-2496
414.382.4309

 

From: George Zimmerman [mailto:george@CMEPHYCONSULTING.COM]
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 9:56 PM
To: STDS-802-3-10SPE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [802.3_10SPE] draft contributions for the 10Mbps Single Pair ad hoc Monday 8/22

 

The IEEE website administration isn’t set up yet, so for right now, the presentations will have to go via the reflector.

The attached two contributions are offered to help guide and focus our work – one with acting chair’s comments on par, CSDs and the process, and one on draft objectives for tomorrow.

 

Peter Jones will be chairing our ad hoc, and I believe that we have presentation requests from David Brandt:

Industrial Automation Bit Error Rate

brandt_082216_10SPE_01_adhoc

 

Reduced Minimum Frame Size

brandt_082216_10SPE_02_adhoc

David – if you can forward these to the reflector, it will make the distribution easier.

 

See you all tomorrow morning.

 

-george

 

George Zimmerman, Ph.D.

President & Principal

CME Consulting, Inc.

Experts in Advanced PHYsical Communications

george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

310-920-3860

 

 

 

George Zimmerman, Ph.D.

President & Principal

CME Consulting, Inc.

Experts in Advanced PHYsical Communications

george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

310-920-3860

 


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