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Chris
I agree that 200G is a relatively straightforward extension of 400G and 100G needs a lot more thought.
On the technical comment. I said my numbers may be way off. I was picking up the fact that you said we had 2dB additional margin available due to less mux loss and I was grabbing it all for the electrical link!!! Obviously we need to do the work properly if we are going down that path.
Mike Dudek
QLogic Corporation
Director Signal Integrity
26650 Aliso Viejo Parkway
Aliso Viejo CA 92656
949 389 6269 - office.
From: Chris Cole [mailto:chris.cole@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 12:19 PM
To: Mike Dudek <mike.dudek@xxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Mike,
I am suggesting that there are no easy answers here, and what we need is detailed work through of technical and market issues for the various use scenarios, both near term and long term. Therefore the assertion that 100G is a straightforward extension of 400G is not correct. In contrast, 200G is a straightforward extension of 400G.
With respect to FEC budget allocation to the chip-to-module interface (LAUI or CAUI-2), I am confused as to where your 2dB number comes from. For 400G, we are allocating a fraction of a dB of the KP4 FEC coding gain to the CAUI-8 interface, with the majority allocated to the optical link. How is approximately one order of magnitude change in operating BER in going from KP4 FEC to KR4 FEC, change the requirement for FEC coding gain allocation to go from a fraction of a dB to 2dB?
Chris
From: Mike Dudek [mailto:mike.dudek@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 12:07 PM
To: Chris Cole; STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Chris. Are you suggesting that we could allocate a significant part of the overall error budget to the electrical links. Ie leave the uncorrected BER for the electrical links the same whether KP4 or KR4 is used and instead of having a very small optical penalty for the errors allocated to the electrical link, take a 2dB optical penalty for this instead? (Numbers may be way off).
Mike Dudek
QLogic Corporation
Director Signal Integrity
26650 Aliso Viejo Parkway
Aliso Viejo CA 92656
949 389 6269 - office.
From: Chris Cole [mailto:chris.cole@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 11:32 AM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Steve
It not only seems credible but is actually credible that 25GBaud PAM4 works for 2km and 10km with KR4 FEC. 1m copper cable specification is not the relevant comparison. What is relevant is the 400GBASE-FR8 and LR8 optical specifications with KP4 FEC.
We have used a nominal 6dB loss for 8:1 WDM Mux and DeMux. That means that 50G PAM4 single lane gets an extra ~6dB and 100G 2x50G PAM4 gets an extra ~4dB extra compared to 400GBASE-FR8 and LR8, to offset the lower FEC optical gain, optical penalty reduction, and additional penalty in using CAUI-4 KR4 FEC over two lanes. Let’s call all that ~2dB in round numbers, so we have ~4dB extra margin for 1x50G PAM4 with KR4 FEC vs. 400G 8x50G PAM4 with KP4 FEC, and ~2dB extra margin for 100G 2x50G PAM4 with KR4 FEC vs. 400G 8x50G PAM4 with KP4 FEC. For 1x50G PAM4 2km and 10km, and 2x50G PAM4 2km, that’s comfortable extra margin. For 2x50G PAM4 10km it less extra margin than desirable, but it’s still ~2dB more margin than 400GBASE-LR8.
The argument Mike makes about making new interfaces forward looking rather than backwards looking is an important consideration, but not self-evident. It is worthy of extended discussion. This underscores there are no obvious answers here, and if we add this to 802.3bs we should expect significant delay.
Chris
From: Trowbridge, Stephen J (Steve) [mailto:steve.trowbridge@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 10:30 AM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Hi Mike,
I also disagree with Ali’s comment.
All of the interfaces we have specified for which KR4 FEC was “good enough” were based on 25G NRZ lane technologies. Even for 12.5Gbaud PAM4 over a 1m channel, we used the KP4 FEC. It hardly seems credible that you could do 50GBaud PAM4 to 500m or 25GBaud PAM4 to 2km or 10km with less of a FEC than you need for 12.5Gaud PAM4 over a 1m backplane. Furthermore, it doesn’t seem the right tradeoff to skimp on the FEC, which more and more disappears into the silicon, at the expense of having much more stringent requirements on the components which lead to higher cost.
Regards,
Steve
From: Mike Dudek [mailto:mike.dudek@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 11:07 AM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
I agree that this is a big issue and one that definitely needs to be addressed.
I disagree with Ali’s comment on a different sub-thread that “100 GbE should be using KR4 FEC”. I think we need to look at the problem as a whole and determine what is the best solution.
We have existing 100G optical PMD’s that use “no FEC” and “KR4 FEC”. We are considering future 100G PMD’s (based on 802.3bs) that are defined with KP4 FEC. (To reduce the cost of 100G. If not why would we be considering them!!!)
The C2C and C2M specifications in 802.3bs use the KP4 FEC and making them work for KR4 FEC would require significant additional work and probably a relaxation in reach requirements.
So what is going to be the optimum solution?
1. A forward looking new 100G solution that uses KP4 FEC and leverages the 802.3bs work that would provide the lowest cost solution with the new optical PMD’s but requires modules that have CAUI2 inputs and use “legacy” optical interfaces to incorporate KP4 FEC encode/decode in the module.
2. A solution based on KR4 FEC that would probably require relaxed reach requirements for C2C and C2M CAUI-2 (compared with the use of KP4 FEC) but would not require FEC decoder/encoder for 100GBASE-SR4 and the non-IEEE standards of CWDM4 and 100G PSM4. It would require KR4 FEC encoder/decoder in a CAUI-2 module for LR4 and a KR4/KP4 transcoder in the module for new optical PMD’s that need KP4.
Note that I suspect if 100G uses KR4 FEC and this work is within 802.3bs then it will delay 802.3bs. If however the KP4 FEC is used then I don’t see a delay for 802.3bs.
Mike Dudek
QLogic Corporation
Director Signal Integrity
26650 Aliso Viejo Parkway
Aliso Viejo CA 92656
949 389 6269 - office.
From: Jeffery Maki [mailto:jmaki@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 5:45 PM
To: Mike Dudek <mike.dudek@xxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Mike,
If we can decide that KR4 FEC will not have sufficient performance for CAUI-2 C2C and/or C2M, it shall have big impact on how other things proceed or not. Without the use of an extender sublayer, one will have no means of interoperation other to run the new 50G lanes at 25G.
Jeff
From: Mike Dudek [mailto:mike.dudek@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 12:15 PM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
It won’t be a slam-dunk to create a CAUI-2 using KR-FEC when the CDAUI-8 is using KP-FEC. Also if we are considering 100GBASE-DR or 100GBASE-LR2 those are likely to want the KP-FEC. I expect also that the 50G serial backplane and copper links are going to want the KP4 FEC. Ie the KP-FEC will be in any chips designed for 50G PAM4.
Mike Dudek
QLogic Corporation
Director Signal Integrity
26650 Aliso Viejo Parkway
Aliso Viejo CA 92656
949 389 6269 - office.
From: John D'Ambrosia [mailto:jdambrosia@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 12:00 PM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Jeff,
If I get your point here – the only thing you are adding to what I already pointed out was the interaction between a x2 C2C with a x4 C2M.
Right?
John
From: Jeffery Maki [mailto:jmaki@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2015 2:37 PM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
I support what Chris is saying. In addition, I think we will need to examine support of existing 100G PMDs with a new optional electrical interface, the CAUI-2 (2x50G) C2M. Further, we should examine CAUI-2 C2C, where the C2M interface is CAUI-4. The desire for things to persist to work with KR4 FEC rather than requiring a new FEC code shall be high.
Jeff
From: Chris Cole [mailto:chris.cole@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 8:53 AM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
The idea of rolling 200G into the 400G project is compelling. In prior discussions, we had rejected this as too late for 802.3bs TF, so it’s encouraging to see we are willing to revisit. One mental test of why this makes sense is to consider what we would have done in 400G Study Group if we knew what we know now. Given the CFI support, it could be argued that most people would have supported both 200G and 400G. If anything, 200G is more compelling.
However, the inclusion of 100G in the 400G project is much less clear. Several arguments can be made that it more naturally belongs in the 50G project. An important consideration is that for both 50G and 100G, backwards compatibility with existing 25G I/O interfaces is important. Specifically we will want 50G supported with 2x25G electrical I/O and 100G to be supported with 4x25G I/O (CAUI-4). This suggests that for 50G single wavelength and 100G WDM2 solutions, KR4 is the appropriate FEC. For both, this gives reasonable optical margin with PAM4 modulation. On the other hand, for 200G WDM4 KP4 is a better choice, same as for 400G WDM8.
Adding only 200G to the 400G project makes for much cleaner documentation modification. Broad market potential for 200G is the same as for 400G. We don’t need to introduce new justification which is required for 100G. Not having 100G, removes any dependence on any other project, so there is no need to discuss this.
Chris
From: John D'Ambrosia [mailto:jdambrosia@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:00 AM
To: STDS-802-3-400G@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-3-400G] New 50G/100G/200G SG - Potential Impact on 802.3bs?
Dear Task Force Participants,
This email is to make sure that everyone is aware of conversations happening in the 50/100/200G Study Group Phone Conference that happened yesterday – Dec 2. There has been discussion at how the multi-lane 100G/200G solutions might be rolled into the 802.3bs project. To that end – I gave a presentation at the conference call that looked at potential modifications / additions to our PAR / CSD. See http://www.ieee802.org/3/50G/public/adhoc/archive/dambrosia_120215_50GE_NGOATH_adhoc_v2.pdf
I encourage everyone to review this presentation and consider the findings on the last few pages. Individuals may wish to participate in the upcoming 50/100/200G ad hoc calls that Mr. Nowell has planned. For more information see http://www.ieee802.org/3/50G/public/adhoc/index.html.
I will be working on the meeting announcement for the January interim, and anticipate that there will be a joint session of our Task Force with the Study Groups to further consider these implications.
Regards,
John D’Ambrosia
Chair, IEEE P802.3bs 400GbE Task Force