Re: [802.3_RTPGE] Fw: [802.3_RTPGE] PoE ad hoc

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Type testing requirements for communication networks and systems in substations are described in IEC 61850 Part 3: General requirements.

Clause 5.7 handles the environmental conditions for EMI immunity including conducted disturbances/surges (5.7.1.2):

Surges as per IEC 61000-4-5 (test levels to class 4) with waveforms 1,2/50 µs and 10/700 µs and peaks up to 4 kV.

Conditions to be met (5.7.4.2):

The equipment shall be considered to have passed the tests if - during, or as a result of, the tests - all of the following conditions are met for the equipment and the connected devices:

no hardware damage occurs;
no change in calibration beyond normal tolerance is caused by the test;
no loss or corruption of stored memory or data occurs, including active or stored settings;
system resets do not occur, and manual resetting is not required;
established communications are not permanently lost;
if disrupted, established communications automatically recover within an acceptable time period;
communication errors, if they occur, do not jeopardize the protective or control functions;
no changes in the states of the electrical, mechanical, or communication signal outputs occur. This includes alarms and atatus outputs;
no erroneous, permanent change of state of the visual, audible, or message outputs occurs. Mementary changes in these outputs during the tests are permitted;
no error outside the normal tolerances for data communication signals (SCADA analogues) occurs.

With best regards,
Ludwig Winkel

Siemens AG
Industry Sector
Industry Automation Division
Sensors and Communication
Fieldbus Communication
I IA SC FC
Oestliche Rheinbrueckenstr. 50
76187 Karlsruhe, Germany
Tel.: +49 721 595-6098
Mobile: +49 172 6132658
mailto:ludwig.winkel@xxxxxxxxxxx

Siemens Aktiengesellschaft: Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Gerhard Cromme; Managing Board: Peter Loescher, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer; Roland Busch, Brigitte Ederer, Klaus Helmrich, Joe Kaeser, Barbara Kux, Hermann Requardt, Siegfried Russwurm, Peter Y. Solmssen, Michael Suess; Registered offices: Berlin and Munich, Germany; Commercial registries: Berlin Charlottenburg, HRB 12300, Munich, HRB 6684; WEEE-Reg.-No. DE 23691322

Hi Ludwig,

Thanks for the info.

Few questions:

1. How the 4KV surge on signal lines is applied? Through capacitive clamp other contact? On each wire separately relative to chassis?

2. What do you mean by "PoE channels will be treated like non-PoE channels"?

Thanks

Yair

Darshan Yair

Chair

Power over HDBaseT Subcommittee

HDBaseT Alliance

Chief R&D Engineer

Analog Mixed Signal Group

Microsemi Corporation

1 Hanagar St., P.O. Box 7220
Neve Ne'eman Industrial Zone
Hod Hasharon 45421, Israel
Tel: +972-9-775-5100,

Cell: +972-54-4893019
Fax: +972-9-775-5111

E-mail: <mailto:ydarshan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>.

From: Winkel, Ludwig [mailto:ludwig.winkel@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:51 PM
To: STDS-802-3-RTPGE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_RTPGE] Fw: [802.3_RTPGE] PoE ad hoc - new information

Dave et al,

The requirements from Industrial Automation according the question list FYI:

1. Is PoE as defined in Clause 33 of the current standard adequate for RTPGE?

Yes, IEEE 802.3at is adequate in principle, some additional requirements exist:

For substation automation, 4kV surge on signal lines without interference transmitted should be supported.
A chassis ground is always available.
The maximum length of a PoE segment is 100m.
PoE channels will be treated like non-PoE channels.
A daisy-chain configuration may be desirable.

The EEE for industrial automation is done by using a higher layer protocol for Device-shut-down, not by switch off the power.

With that we can daisy chaining the power to decouple the topology from the logical grouping of devices that can be switched off.

From: Dave Dwelley [mailto:ddwelley1@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 18. Juli 2012 20:31
To: STDS-802-3-RTPGE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [802.3_RTPGE] Fw: [802.3_RTPGE] PoE ad hoc - new information

All -

Another clarification - discussion about a CFI in particular is out of scope in this meeting.

Dave

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Dave Dwelley <ddwelley1@xxxxxxxxx>
To: STDS-802-3-RTPGE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:39 AM
Subject: [802.3_RTPGE] PoE ad hoc - new information

All -

A couple of clarifications: the meeting this afternoon is intended to address all PoE topics, not just RTPGE-focused topics. The goal is to decide whether it makes sense to hold a new CFI to address all PoE topics, including RTPGE, PoE++, and any other relevant PoE topics. Please invite anyone who can contribute (and is present in San Diego) who is not on the RTPGE reflector.

The RTPGE meeting is expected to break around 2:30 today, so this PoE meeting will start immediately afterwards. Meet in the lobby outside Manchester D.

Dave