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Everyone, Technically, no channel model (informative or normative) was ever approved.
If you see Motion #14 from January 2005 Move that the Task Force use the methodology proposed in dambrosia_03_0105 as the basis for determining an informative SDD21 channel model for TP1-TP4.
This model methodology is filled with a lot of TBD’s that would make it possible to generate specific informative channel models for each of the 3 PHY. F2 is currently left as TBD (with some factor x Nyquist in parenthesis). In truth the focus has been on the10GBASE-KR. The beauty of this model methodology is one can easily see about designing a backplane today for 10G serial tomorrow and do the necessary cost justification at that time.
I think we all agree that we wish we had further info on TP4-TP5.
John
-----Original Message-----
“Does this mean the channel will meet all the scope at the same time ? “ I think the simple answer is YES. I think there is only one channel spec.
“2) As for the channel model, I think the channel specifications from TP1 to TP5 is important, especially for 10G serial application. for 1G per lane and 3.125G X 4 lanes application, maybe we can ignore the influence caused by the component from TP4 to TP5 (two line card vias and a compactor), since before 3G Hz, the via's influence is limited, however, for 10G serial application, especially for NRZ coding, line card vias also play a great role for the channel performance. According to our simulation result, for the via routing in layer 2 (line card is about 2.5mm thick), beyond 5 GHz, the insertion loss of the via drop's sharply. We need define specifications from TP1 to TP5, instead of the specification form TP1 to TP4. ”
I think this is a good point. We had much discussion regarding this. The whole idea is that TP4 to TP5 was supposed to be owned by the chip. As a chip vendor, we don’t like this. I suggested that if TP4 to TP5 was not transparent (+/-?), then it needs to go into the TP1 to TP4 budget. In my opinion the issues was not adequately resolved.
Richard Mellitz Intel Corporation Columbia, SC
From:
owner-stds-802-3-blade@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
[mailto:owner-stds-802-3-blade@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Jia Gongxian
Hi all IEEE P802.3ap Task Force Members,
I have been concerned for IEEEE 802.3 ap Task Force for a long time, and have read through all the relevant materials available from the website up to now. I do hope I have a chance to discuss with all members about the project as a system backplane designer, to share what I think about it. Since it is inconvenient for us to take part in the face to face meeting and teleconference, I hope I can use the "e-mail reflector" as a platform to share with you all.
The following is what I want to know and what I care about most:
1) From the object objective, the project will cover 1 G per lane, 3.125 GbpsX4 lanes and 10Gbps per lane. Does this mean the channel will meet all the scope at the same time ? For the legacy backplane used for around 1 Gpbs , most of them is made of common FR4 and general connector,such as 2mm connector without shield pin. I think it is very hard to upgrade to serial 10 Gbps, at most up to 3.125 Gbps, economically. For the legacy backplane used for around 3.125Gbps per channel, we still use common FR4, not improved FR4, and apply common manufacturing technology. For the NRZ coding 10Gbps application, if we use this kind for backplane, I think this is very hard to realize. Thus I think for serial 10G backplane, we may using Greenfield backplane, not legacy backplane.
According to our simulation and measurement results, the insertion loss of channel up to 3 GHz or so, is mainly effected by attenuation of copper loss and dielectric, impedance discontinuity caused by trace and connector, beyond 3 GHz, the via stub play a more and more important role, firstly, backplane via stub, secondly, line card stub.
Given we want each layer in PCB can be routed high speed signals,for NRZ coding 5/6 G application, backplane via maybe need be backdirlled, for NRZ coding 10 G application, line card via maybe backdrilled also.
Does this project plan to using common PCB technology to make the backplane and linecard ? or using backdirlling and other technologies to reduce the via stub ?
2) As for the channel model, I think the channel specifications from TP1 to TP5 is important, especially for 10G serial application. for 1G per lane and 3.125G X 4 lanes application, maybe we can ignore the influence caused by the component from TP4 to TP5 (two line card vias and a compactor), since before 3G Hz, the via's influence is limited, however, for 10G serial application, especially for NRZ coding, line card vias also play a great role for the channel performance. According to our simulation result, for the via routing in layer 2 (line card is about 2.5mm thick), beyond 5 GHz, the insertion loss of the via drop's sharply. We need define specifications from TP1 to TP5, instead of the specification form TP1 to TP4.
3) As for the test sample, I think we should define some specifications to guide how to design. The test samples must actually reflect the real product design, or else, the measurement result and conclusion according to the result is meaningless. For example, different types of test launches we used will greatly influence our test result. I think the rules is, the design will reflect the practical design, not just for test. For instance, we can use optimized SMT sma and with a PTH (plated through hole) with 8/10 mil diameter to reflect the BGA via in practice.
4) As for the channel crosstalk, some member have mentioned using power sum to define the spec, however, the project is aim at high speed digital application, all the standards are defined as voltage in practice, such as eye height, imput sensitivity, ect. We usually using voltage sum to calculate the worst case of crosstalk, not power sum.
5)As for the Serdes, It's better to integrated ac compactor into Serdes, which will significantly improve the channels performance, for we can reduce 2 line card vias and a compactor in linecard. Serdes for 10G serial applications must have adaptive equalization and BIST function.
Any comments will be welcomed.
Thanks and Best regards.
Jia Gongxian Shenzhen China
Tel: 86 755 89651154 |