Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] Support for Don Pannell's proposal
All (speaking as an individual) -
We are talking about things far too generically here to be useful. "TSN" isn't one thing - it is a toolbox, a suite. It was envisioned to run on point-to-point, full-duplex networks. In the discussion people have blurred multiple "TSN profiles" - and it has come out that some of which are not fully defined yet. We need to focus on the underlying 802.1 specifications and tools. Some of those are specifically out of bounds for 802.3 CSMA/CD half-duplex shared-media networks (like, for example, 802.1Q MSRP. Some are more vague - they define operation for full-duplex point to point and are silent on 802.3 CSMA/CD half duplex. There may be other restrictions in the existing 802.1 specifications as well (some have mentioned speed). We need to talk specifically about the tools needed.
Likewise, 10SPE, or 802.3cg has both point-to-point full-duplex links and a phy supporting 802.3 CSMA/CD half-duplex shared media. Those will have different characteristics with 802.1 protocols, depending on which one you're talking about. I do not recall hearing arguments regarding the 10 Mbps single-pair solutions for point-to-point full-duplex links (10BASE-T1L and 10BASE-T1S in full-duplex point to point mode). And further, any adjustment that has been proposed has only been in a situation where the shared medium network (10BASE-T1S in half-duplex multidrop) is used with the optional PLCA Reconciliation sublayer. It sounds as if the world is OK with the notion that a shared, CSMA/CD half-duplex network, is, for now, outside of the suite that is used for TSN.
So please, let's stop talking generalities like the world will burn. CSMA/CD half-duplex networks have been around for a long time, before TSN. 802.1 and 802.3 are living standards, updated continuously (or we'd all be out of work here and back to our day jobs). If, in the future, we wish to augment the 802.1 tool box, and, perhaps the 802.3 interfaces to it, to support CSMA/CD half-duplex networks (with or without something like PLCA), we should do that with careful planning in an appropriately scoped project with the right timeline.
George A. Zimmerman, Ph.D.
President & Principal Consultant
CME Consulting, Inc.
Experts in PHYsical Layer Communications
1-310-920-3860
george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Voss <Bob.Voss@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 6:38 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10SPE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] Support for Don Pannell's proposal
The great promise of SPE in my mind is extending Ethernet across the entire Industrial network, gaining all of the benefits Ethernet brings to the application while replacing disparate legacy protocols. Chief among those benefits is the ability to apply TSN techniques, making critical data delivery more reliable. It is therefore impossible to rule out TSN in any area of Industrial networks.
BV__________________________
From: Craig Gunther <0000000820a94839-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 8:15 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10SPE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] Support for Don Pannell's proposal
The concern for TSN is related to shared media. Point-to-point Full Duplex Ethernet media should not be a problem, regardless of the speed. Just make sure you have the time-stamping hardware required by 802.1AS (gPTP).
- Craig
On Thursday, September 13, 2018, 3:06:25 PM GMT+2, Gottron, Jens <jens.gottron@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi,
I am no expert for TSN but I see no reason, why 10Mbit "APL" will not support TSN, because it is based on the 10BASET1L PHY, which is 10Mbit Full Duplex.
Best regards,
Jens
With best regards,
Jens Gottron
Siemens AG
Process Industries and Drives Division
Technology and Innovations
Field Level Communication
PD TI AT 3
Oestliche Rheinbrueckenstr. 50
76187 Karlsruhe, Germany
Tel.: +49 721 595-1876
mailto:jens.gottron@xxxxxxxxxxx
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Von: Marius-Petru Stanica [mailto:mariuspetru.stanica@xxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. September 2018 14:54
An: STDS-802-3-10SPE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: Re: [802.3_10SPE] AW: [802.3_10SPE] Support for Don Pannell's proposal
Hello all,
I am coming from ABB, Drives. I am not sure how to interpret these emails. I would avoid saying that there is no wish to support TSN on 10 Mbps APL, but I see some doubts.
I am also participating in the IEEE IEC 60802 Joint Project and in the 802.1 activities.
I would suggest that we have a more comprehensive discussion before one takes such decisions.
I would like to thank you all before hand.
Best regards,
Marius
Fehler! Es wurde kein Dateiname angegeben.
Dr. Marius-Petru STANICA
Communications Profiles Digital Architect, Drives Products ABB Automation Products GmbH Wallstadterstraße 59
DE-68526 Ladenburg, Germany
Tel: +49 6203 71 2922
Mobil: +49 171 996 12 50
email: marius-petru.stanica@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:marius-petru.stanica@xxxxxxxxxx>
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