RE: [EFM] EFM Requirements
I would be careful not to count RTP/UDP/IP overhead atop the MPEG
bitrates, along with SMS-type of protocol if we don't go IPv6 NDP or
cannot scale VLANs to where they need to be in EFM.
BTW, when do we discuss extending the range of VLANs beyond 4096?
-=Francois=-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-3-efm@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-stds-802-3-efm@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Vladimir
Oksman
Sent: August 15, 2001 6:36 PM
To: Sherman Ackley
Cc: 'Stds-802-3-Efm (E-mail)'
Subject: Re: [EFM] EFM Requirements
Thank you, Sherman,
so we come to 9.5Mb/s for a "regular" customer possible downgrades
in the bit rate for out-ranging ones. However, this number you got
putting two video channels which are in principal asymmetric. Here I
come to a requirement: Downstream = 9.5 Mb/s
Upstream = 1.5 Mb/s + 1.5 Mb/s = 3 Mb/s (I added another 1.5 Mb/s
for
better data interactive services).
Looks close to the original VDSL requirement 22/3 Mb/s!
Am I interpreting you right?
Vladimir.
Sherman Ackley wrote:
> Before you can determine a minimum bit rate, the application needs to
> be determined. Today, the high bit rate services are connections to
> web hosting sites, corporate LANs and for video delivery to consumers.
>
> For the business customer, they only have a choice of a T1/E1 private
> over a SHDSL connection. What would be ideal is if the bandwidth
> could operate like an ethernet LAN in that it could go 1 Mbps outbound
> while going 5 Mbps inbound and the next instant go 4 Mbps outbound and
> 2 mbps inbound.
>
> For the consumer, most carriers are looking at being able to provide
> integrated broadband services which would include VoIP, two MPEG-2 @4
> Mbps each and internet access at about 1 Mbps. When you add 2 each @4
> Mbps + 1 Mbps + 500 Kbps you get about 9.5 Mbps. It would be nice to
> be able to do this for the Copper serving area out of the CO or DLC
> serving area. That is about 12,000 ft.
>
> The system should be symmetrical in terms of the maximum bit rate. It
> does not mean that it should be two way simultaneous at the same bit
> rate. For example, a T1 provides 1.536 Mbps simultaneously in both
> directions for a total 3.072 Mbps. In the case of ethernet, the 10
> Mbps can be used alternatively in either direction or dynamically
> allocable as needed between the two directions. ADSL has a fixed 6:1
> traffic ratio. That is, if the outbound is 6 Mbps, the inbound is 1
> Mbps for a total of 7 Mbps. If you need 2 Mbps for inbound, you are
> out of luck.
>
> I have not personally installed an FS-VDSL service at a home so that I
> am not fully aware of the complexities.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vladimir Oksman [mailto:oksman@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 4:15 PM
> To: Sherman Ackley
> Cc: 'Stds-802-3-Efm (E-mail)'
> Subject: Re: [EFM] EFM Requirements
>
> Sherman,
>
> I have a sympathy to this list of 5 - seems as a strong step
> forward. Some small questions.
> 1. You say: "Reach is more important that bit rate". What is the
minimum bit
> rate you keep in mind?
>
> 2. You say: "data rate needs to be dynamically allocable between
> downstream and upstream flows". Does it mean that system actually is
> not required to be symmetric (or "about symmetric")?
>
> 3. From some discussions in FS-VDSL I got an impression that VDSL will
> require some installation at the NID (because people still don't
> believe that it could
> run over the home wiring) including connection to the CPE gateway.
Does it
> sound
> acceptable?
>
> Thankfully,
>
> Vladimir.
>
> Sherman Ackley wrote:
>
> > It is great to get more practical field experience and information
> > to help in defining the requirements for the EFM working group.
> >
> > Seems we are arriving at a consensus that some things that are
> > important requirements. These include: 1. Reach is mort important
> > than raw bit rate. 2. Self install by an untrained consumer is a
> > must. 3. The home network hides behind a gateway/firewall of some
> > kind for security resons.
> > 4. There are at least 5 home networking technologies. These are
10-baseT
> on
> > new dedicated CAT5 data wiring, HomePNA on the existing phone line,
> > 802.11 wireless and HomePlug over the power line, and I almost
> > forgot HomeRF (excuse me for saying it to an 802 group) 5. You
> > cannot predict what consumers will use it for, therefore the data
> > rate needs to be dynamically allocable between downstream and
> > upstream flows.
> >
> > When multiple services ride over the same physical media, it is
> > desireable that they not interfere with each other.
> >
> > One of the best frequency coordination jobs was done by the video
> industry.
> > It is possible to place Cable Modem, off air TV, CATV and DBS on the
> > same coax without interference. Today, the same is true with analog
> > voice,
> ADSL
> > and HomePNA. It is not true with VDSL.
> >
> > Since you install DOCSIS modems, did you notice that you can put the
> > modem on any video outlet and it works. You can also move it to
> > another room
> and
> > it will work.
> >
> > It would be interesting to find out what percent of ADSL
> > installations use splitters versus filters. Does any one have any
> > statistics on this?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fletcher E Kittredge [mailto:fkittred@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:23 PM
> > To: Sherman Ackley
> > Cc: Stds-802-3-Efm (E-mail)
> > Subject: Re: [EFM] EFM Requirements
> >
> > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:31:06 -0400 Sherman Ackley wrote:
> > > Coexistence with HomePNA on the same cable pair is essential.
> > > This
> > feature
> > > will be necessary in over 75% of households served with Integrated
> > Broadband
> > > services. For example, a data stream of 10 Mbps will support two
> > > MPEG-2 high-resolution standard TV signals. The DSL will carry
> > > this to the
> > primary
> > > service set-top box/home gateway that can be located anywhere in
> > > the
> > house.
> > > The Gateway device will terminate the video and data for use at
> > > the
> > primary
> > > TV, it will then forward the second video and data over the same
> > > cable
> > pair
> > > to other set-top boxes and PCs within the house using HomePNA.
> >
> > Sherman;
> >
> > I'm in the rural Northern New England market. We have a
> > fair number of rural phone companies up here; they serve about 18%
> > of the market.
> >
> > I don't understand the "essential" statement above. Does
> > this mean that if EFM doesn't work with HomePNA, EFM is worthless or
> > is there some other definition of "essential". Where the 75% figure
> > comes from?
> >
> > It sounds like you have a good, detailed understanding of
> > how the customer will use this protocol. My experience has been
> > that it is difficult to predict in less than the most general terms
> > how a protocol will be used. Two illustrations which are vivid to
> > me are ATM, which was to replace the Internet protocols, and DSL,
> > which was to allow video on demand over phone lines.
> >
> > > Finally, feedback on these ideas from other service providers and
> vendors
> > is
> > > invited.
> >
> > I think your emphasis on the importance of reach is spot on and I
> > could not agree more. I think the analysis of how the service will
> > be used should not be used to make decisions. It is impossible to
> > know.
> >
> > regards,
> > fletcher