Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
George,
The short answer is no, I don't believe that having a modem receive more than one MCS profile would push you in the direction of doing a downstream GATE or MAP message. Other things might, but I don't think this would in and of itself.
For supporting multiple MCS profiles on a single device, there are a couple of options that have come up in conversations I've had.
One would be for the CNU to "listen" to 2 different MCS profiles: one for unicast traffic to that device, and one for messages that are shared with other devices (broadcast, multicast, etc.). Note that the profile used for broadcast and multicast traffic could also be used for unicast traffic (it wouldn't necessarily have to be exclusive to broadcast and multicast traffic, although it could be).
A second would be for the CNU to "listen" to it's MCS profile and all "lower" MCS profiles. Or at least all MCS profiles that it is able to successfully receive and decode. This provides more flexibility when packing out FEC codewords, etc., but could impact overall system efficiency. It also could provide some simplifications by enabling fixed durations at each profile (as opposed to doing it dynamically) without too major of a hit to efficiency (at least potentially). However, it does (to a degree) assume the concept of "low-medium-high" for the profiles, which could be overly limiting.
I'm sure there are other options as well — these are just a couple I'm aware of.
Thanks.
Matt
From: "George Hart @ Rogers" <George.Hart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:George.Hart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:06 AM
To: Matthew Schmitt <m.schmitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:m.schmitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>, "STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>" <STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Matt,
Is there a notion of having each CNU suporting 2 different MCS? If so, does it require a downstream map?
Thanks,
George
From: Matthew Schmitt [mailto:m.schmitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:55 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Eugene,
Alternately, you could send the multicast (and MPCP messages) on a profile that everyone listens to and is set to the lowest common denominator.
Thanks.
Matt
From: <Dai>, "Eugene (CCI-Atlanta)" <Eugene.Dai@xxxxxxx<mailto:Eugene.Dai@xxxxxxx>>
Reply-To: "Dai, Eugene (CCI-Atlanta)" <Eugene.Dai@xxxxxxx<mailto:Eugene.Dai@xxxxxxx>>
Date: Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:45 AM
To: "STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>" <STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Hi Victor: We haven’t met, but I know your name from DPOE.
Your comments on how EPON handle multicast video are absolutely correct; but that is also exactly the problem for multi MCS profiles for EPOC PHY. The multiple MCS PHY profiles are essentially creating multiple small pipes inside what you referred as “big data pipe” at PHY layer. As we know that EPON DS is broadcast in nature, it is very efficient in handling multicast video as you described. With this multiple PHY profiles we have duplicate each broadcast and multicast streams to each of the small pipes, including EPON MAC messages.
Eugene Dai PhD
Principle Transport Architect
COX Communications
Tel: 404-269-8014
From: Victor Blake [mailto:victorblake@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:26 AM
To: Dai, Eugene (CCI-Atlanta); STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Hi Eugene,
I don’t think we’ve met, but I’ve been following your comments with interest.
I don’t see the relationship to “multicast video.” Unlike HFC today, the goal is not to FDM video and data, it’s one big fat data pipe which is bandwidth managed by IP and Ethernet. Not that it’s at all related to EPoC (because I don’t think it is), but one strict fix for that is simply an LLID for video. That would all happen above the PHY without respect to other than the obvious fact that one cannot administrative configure an LLID to support more bandwidth than the PHY supports and that obviously one must do calculations (either in engineering or admistratively on the box – again without reference to the protocol) as to how to share the shared bandwidth (aka configuration management).
Victor R. Blake
Independent Consultant
victorblake@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:victorblake@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
http://www.victorblake.com<http://www.victorblake.com/>
http://twitter.com/victorblake
540-338-1076
From: Dai, Eugene (CCI-Atlanta) [mailto:Eugene.Dai@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:38 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Duane: I suggest that we consider some realistic examples, instead of this kind of wild argument. All DOCSIS CM support 256QAM today, some may support 1024 QAM in the future. Assuming ~100MHz DS bandwidth allocation for EPOC, with 1024 QAM we get 1 Gbps raw bandwidth, with 256 QAM the raw bandwidth will be 800 Mbps. Where is 250Mbps in your example come from?
We can make MAC to aware PHY or more preciously PHY rate, but what price we have to pay? The impacts are not limited at PHY layer; it will propagate to system level, for example how to deal with multicast video? Unnecessarily duplicate multicast video streams to different PHY profiles could consume more bandwidth than possible gain. Backward compatibility is another concern.
The ultimate goal is to improve outside plant condition to accommodate a reasonably higher modulation orders.
Eugene Dai PhD
Principle Transport Architect
COX Communications
Tel: 404-269-8014
From: Duane Remein [mailto:Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:51 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Marek,
A simple example.
An EPoC network with 10 CNUs, 9 can operate at 1G, 1 can only attain 250M
With 2 MCS profiles you can attain an average instantaneous network data rate of 950 Mbps or 95 Mbps per user.
With LCD you can only attain an average instantaneous network data rate of 250 Mps or 25 Mbps per user.
Best Regards,
Duane
FutureWei Technologies Inc.
duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Director, Access R&D
919 418 4741
Raleigh, NC
From: Marek Hajduczenia [mailto:marek.hajduczenia@xxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:20 PM
To: Duane Remein; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Duane,
Could you please kindly point to me to any study which shows that “significantly lower” bandwidth ? I failed to find any such contribution submitted to EPoC TF / SG. Perhaps I missed something along the way.
Marek
From: Duane Remein [mailto:Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 16:23
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Matt,
I suspect another argument for multiple profiles is that you can offer a higher level of service. Like it or not, networks are assessed based on the average sustained data rate that can be delivered to a customer. With a lowest common denominator approach this would be significantly lower.
Best Regards,
Duane
FutureWei Technologies Inc.
duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Director, Access R&D
919 418 4741
Raleigh, NC
From: Matthew Schmitt [mailto:m.schmitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:25 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [802.3_EPOC] Why multiple simultaneous MCS
Based on some of the discussions, I think it might be worthwhile to spend a moment going into the chain of reasoning that led myself (and others) to the conclusion that an advanced next generation HSD system for HFC (such as EPoC) should include the ability to support multiple simultaneous Modulation and Coding Schemes (MCS).
If I were to sum it up in 2 words (okay, technically 4), it would be this: SNR Headroom.
In a system that requires all end stations to operate with the same MCS (and to receive all downstream transmissions), the great danger is that for whatever reason the SNR to a given end station will change sufficiently that it will drop offline. That simply cannot be allowed to happen. As a result, operators are required to maintain a significant amount of "SNR Headroom" when they setup and deploy an end station. Common practice is to allow on order of 8 db of SNR headroom when deploying a modem (some a little more, but I'm not aware of any that do less).
What this means is the following… Let's say that you needed 25 dB of SNR to operate 1024 QAM with a 3/4 LDPC FEC code (which I believe is the case with DVB-C2, and serves as a useful reference point here). An MSO would not actually use that MCS unless they could get their end stations at 33 dB of SNR (25+8) when deploying them. If they couldn't get to that level when deploying the end station, they wouldn't be able to use that MCS.
I pulled out that particular number because, based on the SNR distributions that were shared previously, even if you assumed you could "bring up" the bottom 2.1% of modems, that's the best you could expect to do. And even if you could further improve SNR, you're still always going to be operating in effect 8 dB below what you could theoretically do. For example, just to get to 4096 QAM with a 5/6 LDPC FEC, you'd need to get every single end station to operate at about 40dB or higher of SNR.
Now, if you could get away from requiring that 8 dB of headroom, it would be huge, considering that 6 dB is an order of modulation with the same FEC, an increase of 2 bits per symbol.
One way to achieve that end is to support multiple MCSs, but only one at a time, which is set based on the "lowest common denominator". In this approach, if an end station were to have a sudden drop in SNR, then the system would need to drop to a lower "lowest common denominator", until such time as the problem could be addressed. By having that fall back, you could in theory operate closer to the theoretical maximum and reduce the amount of headroom required.
However, there are some issues here. First, one bad end station coming onto the network — or a single problem in a single household — would affect the entire network, degrading the service of every single end station. Second, particularly in the scenario where an end station encounters a problem after it's already online, there's no guarantee that it would even still be able to communicate that it was having a problem and that it needed the MCS to be changed. That risk is then going to force you to leave more headroom, mitigating any potential gains.
The only approach that we've come up with so far that allows you to significantly reduce that headroom and operate close to theoretical levels — while not adversely affecting the entire system when there's a problem — is to create a system in which a single end station is able to fall back to a more robust MCS if it encounters a problem. In that way, only the single device having an issue is affected, and unless the problem is truly catastrophic you can reliably keep the mode online (meaning that you have an opportunity to fix the problem while the customer remains online and operational).
We could argue back and forth for quite a while about SNR spreads on the network, how much variation there will be between end stations in a given service group, etc. And the ability to operate each device to its maximum potential is very appealing to be sure. But what really makes this decision, in my opinion, is the SNR headroom issue, and in particular the ability to significantly reduce it while actually improving robustness and the ability to keep customers on line.
Thanks.
Matt
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