Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency Offset Frequency
Does anyone know what oscillator tolerance was specified for D3.1 CMs?
I agree that a 50 ppm "free running" tolerance is not a significant cost
burden on the CNU vs. 100 ppm. Of course this is free-running and would
have the biggest impact on acquisition time. The CNU will end up
phase-locking to the downstream OFDM subcarriers, and thus track the
frequency accuracy of the CLT. Also, the CNU will not end up
transmitting anything upstream until it has phase-locked to the
downstream OFDM subcarriers.
Normally, the OLT (and downstream PON) is externally synchronized to an
external reference (frequency, phase/ToD, or both), so if the CLT uses
the RX PON as it's OFDM timing reference, the CNU will end up
phase-locking to the OLT external frequency or ToD/Phase reference.
Regards,
Bill
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:00:35 +0000
From: Leo Montreuil <leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Leo Montreuil <leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Duane,
I think the applicable FCC standard is *Part 76.712*. The required
accuracy is +/-10 KHz for carrier frequency. In the aeronautical band,
the requirement is more stringent at +/-5KHz. For a channel at 1000 MHz,
the 10 KHz requirement translate to 10 ppm.
Note: This is a requirement for traditional cable delivery of analog and
digital video for North America. There are similar requirements in other
standard and region of the world. I do not know if such requirement
applies to new service like EPoC.
Thanks
Leo
*From:*Duane Remein [mailto:Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:34 AM
*To:* Leo Montreuil; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Cc:* Duane Remein
*Subject:* RE: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Leo,
If there is an _FCC or other regulatory requirement_ that we can point
to then I would be very much in favor of tightening up on this
specification. I’ve mentioned 100ppm in various conversations and call
because of well remembered battles during EFM on this topic. At that
time 802.3 WG was vehemently opposed to a tighter specification.
Best Regards,
Duane
FutureWei Technologies Inc.
duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Director, Access R&D
919 418 4741
Raleigh, NC
*From:*Leo Montreuil [mailto:leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:29 AM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Steve,
Thank you for the update. It is possible to allow frequency tolerance up
to 100 ppm but as other have said, it will impact acquisition time.
EPON and Ethernet use baseband signaling and have better tolerance to
frequency offset than EPoC using bandpass signals. In many consumer
grade application, frequency accuracy of 30 to 50 ppm are common without
cost impact. If I remember correctly, accuracy of cable plant head-end
modulators is better than 10 ppm (FCC requirements?).
Thanks
Leo
*From: *<Shellhammer>, Steve Shellhammer <sshellha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:sshellha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Date: *Monday, March 24, 2014 at 2:05 PM
*To: *Leo Montreuil <leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>, "STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>"
<STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Subject: *RE: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Leo,
I wanted to give you an update based on the discussion at the meeting.
A number of people believe that since EPON and Ethernet use 100 ppm
oscillators, we should be able to work with that in EPoC. Avi thought
the current design could be made to work with that oscillator accuracy,
and there was interest in confirming that.
I know that is less accurate than in other organizations but in 802.3
that is the value most often used, so if it can be made to work with 100
ppm oscillators in both the CLT and the CNU that would be best.
My assumption is that the impact would only be on acquisition time, but
acquisition would be possible.
Regards,
Steve
*From:*Leo Montreuil [mailto:leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 6:47 AM
*To:* Shellhammer, Steve; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* RE: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Steve,
To acquire the PLC (without a separate receiver) you have first to
determine the Cyclic Prefix and align the FFT RX window with the
incoming signal. In 802.11, there is a preamble (short in time) that
occupies the whole channel. The 802.11 preamble is used to estimate the
synchronization and mark the beginning of the burst.
In EPoC, we do not have such preamble to synchronize the receiver but we
have continuous transmission. There are 8 continuous pilots surrounding
the PLC. These pilots are BPSK, the pilot modulation (+1+0*j or -1 +0*j)
is static but position dependent, i.e. the subcarrier number determine
if it is a +1 or a -1.
Once you know the CP, you can search for this pilots pattern after the
RX FFT. Unlike the PLC preamble that repeat every 128 symbols, the pilot
pattern is always there. After you found the pilot pattern surrounding
the PLC, you wait for the PLC preamble for frame synchronization
Thanks
Leo
*From:*Shellhammer, Steve [mailto:sshellha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 4:38 AM
*To:* Leo Montreuil; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* RE: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Leo,
Thanks for your email.
I appreciate that the DS is continuous and hence even with a frequency
offset the CNU will be able to connect to the CLT through the PLC, so
this is just an issue of how long it takes to make a connection.
I am glad to hear the TG decided to select a single FFT size (4K) that
makes the entire standard simpler and in this case, less sensitive to
frequency offset. See what happens when I miss a meeting, I miss some of
these technical decisions.
Your comment about using the continuous pilots to add in initial
acquisition is an interesting idea. I would be interested to hear more
about how that can help speed up the process.
See you tomorrow a the EPoC meeting.
Regards,
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Leo Montreuil [leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:leo.montreuil@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*Sent:* Friday, March 14, 2014 6:56 AM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Steve,
The downstream is continuous (broadcast). In 802.11 the transmission in
both direction are burst.
In cable plant, headend equipment usually requires better than 5-10 ppm
accuracy. For subscriber equipment, it is better than 30-50 ppm. First
acquisition can go along these steps (it is vendor specific):
1.Find FFT size 4K or 8Kand CP size by correlation. Note: For
simplification, we removed some CP options and the 8K FFT in Indian Wells.
2.The PLC is surrounded by a number of continuous pilots arranged in a
specific pattern. This pattern can be used to find the PLC and get the
internal time reference synchronized to the TX (within few Hz).
3.Receive 1 or more PLC preamble and message to reset your internal
clock to the network clock.
At this time there is no special preamble to accelerate this process. I
do not think it is needed. It is relatively fast and this is done only
the first time CNU join a network.
Thanks
Leo
*From:*Jim Farmer [mailto:jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Friday, March 14, 2014 8:41 AM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Yeah, I was not advocating that we specify something that will work for
1588 - I pointed out that more than just tighter-tolerance oscillators
would be needed. I was just making the comment that 100 ppm oscillators
will not do for that specialized application. If we can make them work
for routine applications, I have no problem with that.
Thanks,
jim
Please ignore all the changes in font in my message
- my email client does that just to mess with my head.
Jim Farmer, K4BSE
Mobile 678-640-0860
jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> (spam blocked)
Personal web site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jofarmer/index.html <http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejofarmer/index.html>
Boss lady: http://www.kathysflute.com/
Youngest daughter: http://www.joyfarmerclary.com/Sites/Joy_Farmer-Clarys_Welcome.html
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
On 3/14/2014 2:03 AM, Duane Remein wrote:
So for EPON, we just adopted the Ethernet 100 ppm for both OLT and
ONU. Of course it didn’t make a great deal of difference there
either. While it might be nice to specify something better than that
for the CLT 802.3 WG is pretty attached to the 100 ppm spec.
As Marek points out most equipment vendors do much better than than.
Best Regards,
Duane
FutureWei Technologies Inc.
duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Director, Access R&D
919 418 4741
Raleigh, NC
*From:*Marek Hajduczenia [mailto:marek.hajduczenia@xxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:29 PM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
Jim,
Bear in mind that any implementer is free to choose components with
**better** precision, tolerances etc. when manufacturing their
products -- it is called product differentiation. The standard
specifies the minimum that has to be met. So if I were a product
designer and wanted to develop a product (CNU) that supports
IEEE1588v2, I would certainly use more precise oscillators. However,
in cases of products that do not need to meet such tight
requirements, 100ppm oscillators would do just fine.
Does that make sense? I know it is a mantra we repeat over and over
again, but we are supposed to develop a standard and not a product
spec.
Regards
Marek Hajduczenia, PhD
Network Architect, Principal Engineer
Bright House Networks
/Office +1-813-295-5644
Cell +1-813-465-0669/
*From:*Jim Farmer [mailto:jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* March 13, 2014 9:41 PM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
100 ppm seems to be about where most inexpensive oscillators are. I
have not measured any, but my experience is that they will likely
not be any better than that. It is reasonable to specify something
tighter, especially at the CLT. For cable TV headend equipment, we
used to specify 25 ppm and we beat that pretty easily. But it did
take a somewhat more "complex" crystal and an individual adjustment,
both of which add that-of-which-we-are-not-to-speak. And we didn't
have to cover the outdoor temperature range. If a computer gains or
looses 1 minute in a week (between synchronization to a time
server), then its oscillator is in error by 99 ppm. And that is at
room temperature. If you have two independent oscillators, one on
each end, you have to conservatively assume that they are off
indifferent directions, which could double Steve's estimate. But you
can specify a much better oscillator, just that you have to
exchange, uh, "complexity" for accuracy. Probably a good thing to do
at the CLT.
This presupposes that we will not have to support IEEE 1588 through
the system - that requires very tight frequency tolerances. Or we
would have to re-specify for 1588 - will likely take different
hardware anyway from what I know (which is not all that much).
jim
Please ignore all the changes in font in my message
- my email client does that just to mess with my head.
Jim Farmer, K4BSE
Mobile 678-640-0860
jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jofarmer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> (spam blocked)
Personal web site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jofarmer/index.html <http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejofarmer/index.html>
Boss lady: http://www.kathysflute.com/
Youngest daughter: http://www.joyfarmerclary.com/Sites/Joy_Farmer-Clarys_Welcome.html
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
On 3/13/2014 6:48 PM, Shellhammer, Steve wrote:
Marek,
In that case the frequency error would be around +/- 100 kHz
(for 1 GHz RF) and so there would be even larger frequency
uncertainty. So it would be even more important for the PLC
preamble to have some short training fields that can be used to
disambiguate the correct subcarrier.
Is 100 PPM what you would expect for the CNU? I do not think we
have specified the oscillator accuracy yet for the CLT or the
CNU. Maybe something we should figure out. My preference is for
a low-cost oscillator in the CNU and maybe a more accurate one
in the CLT, where the cost may be less of an issue.
Regards,
Steve
*From:*Marek Hajduczenia [mailto:marek.hajduczenia@xxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 12, 2014 6:00 PM
*To:* Shellhammer, Steve; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* RE: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial
Frequency Offset Frequency
Steve,
Once you consider that we might have to work with 100ppm
oscillators in CNUs, the resulting value gets 5 times larger. Is
that a big problem ?
Regards
Marek Hajduczenia, PhD
Network Architect, Principal Engineer
Bright House Networks
/Office +1-813-295-5644
Cell +1-813-465-0669/
*From:*Shellhammer, Steve [mailto:sshellha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* March 12, 2014 8:02 PM
*To:* STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [STDS-802-3-EPOC] PLC Preamble and Initial Frequency
Offset Frequency
EPoC Group,
I was thinking about the PLC preamble and the initial frequency
error due to use of a low-cost and low-accuracy oscillator in
the CNU. In 802.11 they have a way of dealing with initial
frequency offset due to low-accuracy oscillators. I was
wondering if this make sense in EPoC. I did a few calculations
below. I also attached the Word document since I was not sure
what the email reflector would do to the equations.
I would be interested in knowing if this approach used in 802.11
would be useful in EPoC.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
-----------
*PLC Preamble Frequency Calculations*
Assume low-cost crystal with 20 ppm oscillator in CNU. Assume
accuracy of oscillator in CLT is much better so we will ignore
that oscillator error.
Assume the maximum carrier frequency around 1 GHz. Could be a
little higher but for these calculations this is good enough.
*Frequency Error*
Δ/f=±fc×20×10-6//=±//109×20×10-6=±20×/< m:e>/103=±20 kHz/
Initial frequency error at CNU can be up to 20 kHz.
PHY supports subcarrier spacing of 25 kHz and 50 kHz. The worst
case situation from a frequency error perspective is the 25 kHz PHY.
For a 25 kHz PHY the initial frequency error is up to one
subcarrier on each side. So there are three possible tones that
represent the middle tone when first acquiring the PLC. This
would triple the acquisition time, since the CNU would need to
search over three times as many cases.
In the 802.11 OFDM PHY the preamble includes several short
training fields (STFs) where only one out of every four tones is
used, which disambiguates the subcarrier selection due to
frequency offset.
Does this make sense for EPoC?
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