RE: Leakage current vs Hipot

["Rick Brooks" <ribrooks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Title: RE: Leakage current vs Hipot

Ed,
a verbal discussion would be a lot more efficient, but we need to get more people involved here.

Anyway, I absolutely agree, we need a safety expert involved on the working group for guidance.

I actually worked in medical systems for 10 years, and the Hipot tests there all relate to patient safety,
in addition they relate to equipment and personnel safety.
The leakage current tests are all done with the power on, as you say, since that is generally the worst case.
Some tests are also done with the power off.
For the medical case, the patient must be safe whether or not the power for one piece of equipment is on or off.
The leakage currents involved are much lower than the ones used for normal equipment Hipot tests.

For DTE power, we need to be concerned primarily with equipment and personnel safety.

When you say that the Hipot and leakage tests are two different things, I guess I disagree.
They are the same thing in the sense that they relate to safety: equipment and personnel, plus patient safety for medical equipment

Hipot tests use a high potential to induce leakage or fault currents in order to simulate what happens when the
line voltage has high voltage transients. It is tested with the power off, since it is easier to test this way,
and since the fundamental physical isolation barrier does not change in the transformer when power is applied.

The ethernet Hipot test looks for leakage current on the data port.
My opinion is that this test should pass WHETHER OR NOT the power is applied, since we want equipment safety
whether or not power is applied.
In any non-powered port this is the case since again the physical isolation barrier of the data transformer does not
change when power is applied.
If Hipot passes when the power is off, it should pass when power is on.
I think that this Hipot test should pass under all of the following conditions:
        the system power is off
        the system power is on (but the DTE power off)
        and the DTE power is on

This will help assure safety and freedom from ground loops.

any comments?

- Rick

-----Original Message-----
From:   Walker, Ed [SMTP:ed_walker@xxxxxx]
Sent:   Thursday, September 21, 2000 8:11 AM
To:     Brooks, Rick [SC5:321:EXCH]; 'IEEE 802.3 'DTE Power''
Subject:        Leakage current vs Hipot

Rick,
The hipot test is for basic high voltage breakdown within the isolation transfomer and other isolation paths. This test is supposed to be done with the equipment OFF. This is how we did it for 10 years at Compaq. HiPot is performed with a high DC voltage. HiPot is done on every piece of product in the production phase.

 
The leakage current I speak of is tested with the equipment ON and is caused by capacitance between the AC primary front end and the isolated secondary.  Xc=1/2piFC in the transformer couples over the high voltage switching waveform of the primary front end and the current needs a return path. Operating leakage current is tested only once during the product safety testing for the agencies.

 
They are 2 different things.
 
THIS IS WHY THE COMMITTEE NEEDS TO HAVE A SAFETY MEMBER ON BOARD.
 

Ed

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Brooks [mailto:ribrooks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 7:11 PM
To: Walker, Ed
Cc: IEEE 802.3 'DTE Power'
Subject: RE: Leakage current



Ed,
I think that the issue you bring up is covered to some extent by the Hipot test that every 802.3 compliant port must pass.

The maximum leakage current that is acceptable in this test is higher than the numbers that you quote for medical.
Still it does guarantee that the DTE load current will return on the data cable.
The main power supply driving all the powered ports, if it is say an AC to DC type, must meet a different Hipot test
at the AC input.

I think that we should not form this DTE power spec to accommodate medical, it would be safer, but could add a lot of cost.

I believe that for non medical applications the SELV levels are sufficient. Isn't our situation exactly where SELV applies?

One worry that I have is that I've seen a few brand x,y,z  10/100 boxes that do not pass Hipot, but still work fine
from the users point of view.
Will DTE powered boxes that do not pass Hipot exist on the market in the future, and if so, will there be new safety concerns,

and user complaints?
Could be.




- Rick





        -----Original Message-----
From:   Walker, Ed [SMTP:ed_walker@xxxxxx]
Sent:   Monday, September 18, 2000 5:18 PM
To:     IEEE 802.3 'DTE Power'
Subject:        Leakage current

        I just thought of something else to consider. Leakage current specs are very tight in many environments such as medical.   I believe it is something like 5 or 10uA from live wire to earth ground.  Typical computer type specs are 5 mA.  It does not take much current through the human body to stop a heart. That is what this is all about. You can feel a couple of mA of 60Hz current like a "tingle".

        The current is caused by capacitance in the winding of the isolation transformer in the power supply.  There is also some current associated with the bleeder resistor on the front end of an AC input supply-we wont worry about that right now. If the power source for 802.3 is coming from the AC line voltage you must put something in the 802.3 spec to address the leakage current.

        All current from the source should go down the wire/pair to the DTE and be returned to the source down the other wire/pair.  It must not return to the AC input via the ground return or it will present a shock hazard.

        The 802.3 must get a UL/TUV/EN safety member on the team to evaluate these issues.

                Ed Walker
Technical Staff
Analog Product Specialist
Texas Instruments Inc.

                HC66 Box 203
Mountainair NM 87036

                505-847-0576
ed_walker@xxxxxx < <mailto:ed_walker@xxxxxx>>