Re: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
Allow me to add my $0.02.
Due to the rules for establishing membership in a WG, 802.17
has never met quorum requirements at any meetings Plenary or
Interim after March 2001. Over time, we should see our
membership drop as people who are not committed stop showing up
or fail to answer ballots. But until such time, there is very
little hope of meeting quorum at interims.
As such I support the idea of being able to designate an interim
as equivalent to a plenary as long as certain rules are followed.
The WG should vote that the interim be considered as a plenary as a
proceedural motion. This should be done at the Plenary immediately
preceeding the interim meeting.
I think it reasonable that a 1/3 of the voters must be present
at the interim allowing for sufficient oversight and legitimacy
to the votes.
The meeting should be announced with at least 60 days warning and
the venue cannot be changed after the announcement. If a change
is required, then the normal 1/2 quorum rule applies.
cheers,
mike
Matthew Sherman wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> Just an off the cuff thought. Why can't we have working group plenary
> meetings that are at times independent of the 802 plenary? I get concerned
> about treating every interim as being exempt from quorum requirements. If a
> working group wants to designate specific meetings as "plenary" meetings
> without the rest of 802 present, perhaps this should be allowed. However, I
> think there should be such a formal declaration well in advance, the same
> way as is currently done for plenary meetings.
>
> Mat
>
> Matthew Sherman
> Technology Consultant
> Communications Technology Research
> AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
> Room B255, Building 103
> 180 Park Avenue
> P.O. Box 971
> Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
> Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
> Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
> EMAIL: mjsherman@att.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stevenson, Carl R (Carl) [mailto:carlstevenson@agere.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:26 AM
> To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; billq@attglobal.net
> Cc: r.b.marks@ieee.org; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> Subject: RE: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
>
> SEC Colleagues,
>
> I tend to be of the view that the distinction
> between interims and plenaries has become somewhat
> artificial and outdated as far as WGs go ...
>
> Yes, attendance is higher at plenaries ... but,
> at least in the wireless WGs, attendance at
> interims is substantial. The people who are
> dedicated to advancing the work (and who are
> doing the bulk of it) are the ones who take the
> time and expend the money and effort to attend
> the interims.
>
> I am inclined to believe that those who are
> really doing the bulk of the work should not
> be held back by those who are not dedicated
> enough to attend the interims.
>
> I think there should be a way to allow work to
> progress at interims, even if attendance is somewhat
> short of a quorum (based on total voters), based on
> the concept I've outlined above ... that those who
> are doing the bulk of the work should not be held back
> by those who are not the real "worker bees"
> (and ultimately frustrated ... something I've seen
> of late when this issue has prevented progress)?
>
> I haven't formulated an actual proposal on how to
> accomplish this, but simply want to try to stimulate
> some thought and discussion in this direction.
>
> Regards,
> Carl
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 8:45 PM
> > To: billq@attglobal.net; pat_thaler@agilent.com
> > Cc: r.b.marks@ieee.org; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> > Subject: RE: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I agree, though the concept of binding ballots is a bit difficult.
> > I believe they could authorize a non-Plenary meeting to do the
> > sort of things authorized for a task force meeting - e.g. work
> > on ballot comment resolution, prepare a draft for recirculation
> > ballot - things that are reversable at the plenary and material
> > being prepared for working group letter ballots. If they couldn't
> > hold this kind of meeting, one couldn't hold a task force meeting.
> >
> > The hard part is for a chair to draw the line on what can be
> > done at an interim and what can't. We have been doing it in
> > 802.3 for task force meetings for years, are fairly conservative
> > on how much rope we give a task force and have a pretty good
> > feel from experience on where the boundaries are, but it is hard
> > to transfer judgement.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Quackenbush [mailto:billq@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:15 PM
> > To: THALER,PAT (A-Roseville,ex1)
> > Cc: r.b.marks@ieee.org; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
> >
> >
> >
> > Pat,
> >
> > I was trying to comment on the legality under the current
> > LMSC rules of
> > the practice of a WG voting to authorize a non-Plenary
> > meeting of the WG
> > to conduct binding ballots without a quorum.
> >
> > I was not trying to comment on the proposed rule change.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > wlq
> >
> > "THALER,PAT (A-Roseville,ex1)" wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > I am confused by your message. The discussion is about
> > changing 802 quorum
> > > requirements rather than about overriding 802 quorum requirements.
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill Quackenbush [mailto:billq@attglobal.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 8:15 PM
> > > To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
> > > Cc: r.b.marks@ieee.org; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> > > Subject: Re: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > The question of a WG meeting without a quorum and that does
> > not occur
> > > during an 802 Plenary week being able to pass motions is
> > currently dealt
> > > with I believe by the combination of Sections 5.1.4.2.1 and 5.1.4.6.
> > >
> > > 5.1.4.2.1 states that a WG quorum must be present at such a meeting.
> > >
> > > 5.1.4.6 states that the LMSC rules take precedence of WG rules.
> > >
> > > As a result, a WG may not override the quorum requirement for a WG
> > > meeting that does not occur during an 802 Plenary week as
> > that would be
> > > in conflict with the LMSC rules which take precedence.
> > >
> > > wlq
> > >
> > > pat_thaler@agilent.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Roger,
> > > >
> > > > I think that the amount of advance time before the meeting is less
> > > > important than the meeting (and its range of business) being
> > > > approved by the working group.
> > > >
> > > > If a Working Group can authorize a committee (which we often call
> > > > a task force) to conduct business between plenaries, then it can
> > > > authorize a "committee of the whole" to do the same thing. When
> > > > we do that for the task force (or a study group), the charter
> > > > of work they can do is fairly clear - bounded by a PAR (or to
> > > > develop a PAR). Any decisions made to alter that charter (e.g.
> > > > changing the objectives for the PAR) are subject to review
> > > > and approval or rejection during the working group session
> > > > at the plenary (or at an interim with a quorum). If a Working
> > > > Group is going to do something similar then I believe it should
> > > > similarly bound the scope when authorizing the meeting.
> > > >
> > > > I would alter the your text to
> > > > "No quorum is required at meetings held in conjunction with the
> > > > Plenary session since the Plenary session time and place is
> > > > established well in advance. Work may be conducted at
> > interim Working
> > > > Group sessions whose program of work, date and location
> > are agreed to
> > > > by vote at a plenary at least one month in advance of the meeting.
> > > > Technical decisions made without a quorum at such interims are
> > > > subject to review and modification at the plenary unless the
> > > > Working Group has preauthorized a decision such as forwarding
> > > > to Working Group ballot."
> > > >
> > > > Pat
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roger B. Marks [mailto:r.b.marks@ieee.org]
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 10:31 AM
> > > > To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> > > > Subject: [802SEC] views on quorums at WG Interim Sessions
> > > >
> > > > Dear SEC,
> > > >
> > > > I think that we should think about revising the 802 rules
> > to clarify
> > > > the quorum situation for WG Interim Sessions. I think
> > that WGs need
> > > > to know how to take actions that won't be later called
> > into question
> > > > on quorum grounds. The extra uncertainty isn't good for anyone.
> > > >
> > > > I think we have too many continuing question marks on this issue.
> > > > Some WGs have no Interim Sessions, though their Task
> > Forces do meet.
> > > > In other cases, Interim WG meetings are held between all LMSC
> > > > Plenaries.
> > > >
> > > > Also, some WG's will arrange for a vote, at the WG Plenary, to
> > > > authorize a WG to meet and transact business, with our without a
> > > > quorum, at an upcoming Interim. My understanding has been that not
> > > > all SEC members accept the legitimacy of this practice.
> > > >
> > > > We also face questions of what to in the absence of a
> > quorum. Some go
> > > > by Robert, who says "The only business that can be
> > transacted in the
> > > > absence of a quorum is to take measures to obtain a quorum, to fix
> > > > the time to which to adjourn, and to adjourn, or to take
> > a recess."
> > > > Others are more liberal, to varying degrees.
> > > >
> > > > Then we have the question of when the quorum applies.
> > Does the Chair
> > > > need to check for it? Is it assumed, unless a quorum call arises?
> > > > What if no quorum call arises and someone later, after
> > the session,
> > > > challenges the presence of a quorum? Does a quorum at any
> > point in a
> > > > session, or in a meeting, suffice to cover the entire session?
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to think about a rules change to resolve the
> > problem. First,
> > > > however, I'd like to probe where people stand on this issue to see
> > > > what kind of rules change would be likely to pass.
> > > >
> > > > To get things started, here is what I would propose. In
> > 5.1.4.2.1, I
> > > > would change:
> > > >
> > > > "No quorum is required at meetings held in conjunction with the
> > > > Plenary session since the Plenary session time and place is
> > > > established well in advance. A quorum is required at other Working
> > > > Group meetings."
> > > >
> > > > to:
> > > >
> > > > "No quorum is required at meetings held in conjunction with the
> > > > Plenary session since the Plenary session time and place is
> > > > established well in advance. The same is true of other
> > Working Group
> > > > sessions whose date and location are announced at least
> > three months
> > > > in advance. In other cases, Working Groups are authorized
> > to meet and
> > > > transact business. However, no technical vote at such a meeting is
> > > > valid unless quorum is established immediately before, after, or
> > > > during the vote, or unless Working Group action without a
> > quorum has
> > > > been previously authorized by the Working Group."
> > > >
> > > > Could you support a change like this?
> > > >
> > > > I'm personally open to other ideas, but I would like an
> > unambiguous
> > > > LMSC policy.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Roger
> >
--
Michael Takefman tak@cisco.com
Manager of Engineering, Cisco Systems
Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
2000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
voice: 613-254-3399 fax: 613-254-4867