Re: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
Mat, I totally agree with your analysis, but not with your conclusion.
Specifically, I agree that Roger's proposal is not consistent with the
present rules. However, I am strongly in favor of changing those rules. I
thought that Roger's point that the first few meetings of a working group
are critical, is a valid one. A precedent has been set in 802.3, and picked
up in 802.17 and possibly elsewhere, that when a person gains voting rights
they formally state that they want those rights. In my mind, this statement
is an implied commitment to be an active participant in the working group.
If the last that was heard from a person is there attendance in the first
session, then their absence belies that implied commitment. Therefore, at
the end of the second plenary session (the third meeting), we can state that
attendance at only the initial meeting of the working group is insufficient
to maintain membership. Of course the chair is empowered to grant
exceptions. For example if someone has been active on the reflector, and
possibly with contributions, but because of other commitments or temporary
financial considerations, could not make either of the next two meetings,
they could certainly petition the chair to maintain their membership. In
any case, I like the idea of quickly cleaning up the voting membership.
Best regards,
Robert D. Love
President, LAN Connect Consultants
7105 Leveret Circle Raleigh, NC 27615
Phone: 919 848-6773 Mobile: 919 810-7816
email: rdlove@ieee.org Fax: 208 978-1187
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjsherman@research.att.com>
To: <stds-802-sec@ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:21 PM
Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
Hi everyone,
So I will try to summarize what I have heard on the reflector so far
today. First there are two problems we are dealing with:
1) Defining the 802.20 membership for future meetings
2) Defining a voting process for the next 802.20 elections
Actually there are two other issues:
3) Do we allow chairs to interpret "meeting" as "session"
4) Increasing the speed at which membership may be lost
I feel these last two issues will be resolved in the rules change and
are not relevant to 802.20 moving forward at this time. I think the
election process is an important by separate topic, so I will deal with
it in a different e-mail.
One theme I do hear is that we don't want to disenfranchise the 802.20
membership defined last meeting. However, how we interpret the
retention rules to do this seems to vary from person to person. Here is
what I think I hear so far:
The Mat proposal: (Buzz supports and Bob O'Hara?)
I suggested a simple assumption of attending 4 (or for that
matter an infinite number) of meetings prior to the first meeting of a
WG.
The Mike proposal:
You need to have attended 2 sessions after the second WG session
to retain membership. This would imply that you have to attend the
second plenary WG session (or the interim before then if there is one)
in order to maintain membership.
The Roger proposal: (Robert Love supports)
If you attend either the 2nd or 3rd Plenary session (with
allowed substitution of an interim) you maintain your membership.
Personally, I can go with any of these options, as long as we have a
consensus between us. Obviously this all needs to feed into the rules
change as well. The key difference in my mind is the earliest time you
can loose membership. For the three proposals voters can first lose
rights after the following plenary session:
The Mat proposal: 4th plenary
The Mike proposal: 2nd plenary
The Roger proposal: 3rd plenary
The one idea I will write against is Roger's. In my mind there are two
constraints in the two out of four rule: the number of sessions
attended constraint, and the number of sessions evaluated constraint.
Neither of them can be validly applied at the first meeting. At the end
of the second meeting, it is first possible to meet the number of
sessions attended constraint. So it could be interpreted as valid to
evaluate it and decide if it is met independent of the 4 session rule.
This in my mind is what Mike's proposal does. On the other hand, the 4
session constraint can't be evaluated until the 4th session since by
definition it cannot be met before then. In essence, the "Mat" proposal
forces implementation of the 2 out of 4 rule to be delayed until 4
meetings actually exist. My objection to the "Roger" proposal is it
does not directly tie to either constraint. Rather it is in-between
(with possible loss of rights after the 3rd meeting), and as such can
not be viewed as interpreting the 2 out of 4 rule (my opinion). That is
not to say I would not consider adopting Roger's proposal for the up
coming rules change. But I don't consider it a valid interpretation of
the 2 out of 4 rule as it does not clearly tie to either constraint.
Rather it is somewhere in between.
Anyway, I'm looking for further comment - particularly from those who
haven't expressed an opinion yet. Again, my goal is to have a high
consensus on a proposal before I actually put it forward as I will only
have one shot at this before the upcoming 802.20 interim.
Thanks,
Mat
Matthew Sherman
Vice Chair, IEEE 802
Technology Consultant
Communications Technology Research
AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
Room B255, Building 103
180 Park Avenue
P.O. Box 971
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
EMAIL: mjsherman@att.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert D. Love [mailto:rdlove@nc.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 7:00 PM
To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org; Roger B. Marks
Subject: Re: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
Roger, your clear thinking cuts to the heart of the problem. I for one
and
delighted that we have the benefit of your straight forward, no-nonsense
analysis.
Thank you.
Best regards,
Robert D. Love
President, LAN Connect Consultants
7105 Leveret Circle Raleigh, NC 27615
Phone: 919 848-6773 Mobile: 919 810-7816
email: rdlove@ieee.org Fax: 208 978-1187
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger B. Marks" <r.b.marks@ieee.org>
To: <stds-802-sec@ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
>
> I suggest a membership retention plan that, I believe, is based on
> the rules. It's the one I used when 802.16 was starting up.
>
> First of all, membership is clearly based on participation. I cannot
> fathom why anyone would suggest applying the 2-of-4 rule after the
> first session. If you have participating if every session the Working
> Group has ever had, then you are member. Period. I really hope we can
> avoid further debate on this point. [On other other hand, clarifying
> it with a rules change is a fine idea too.]
>
> Now, beyond the first session, things can get complicated if we let
> them, if we start introducing concepts like fictional attendance at
> fictional pre-existing sessions. I also think that this approach
> leads to a poor result. In contrast, I think that the rules, in
> principle, have the right idea as written [though they are clearly
> too fuzzy]. Let me explain.
>
> The first opportunity to lose membership in a new WG is after the
> second Plenary (Session #3, assuming there is an interim Session #2).
> In the case of 802.16, I followed the 2-of-4 rule literally. That
> meant that, to retain membership beyond Session #3, you needed
> participation in a second session beyond #1. In other words, the
> easily-obtained membership that you scored in Session #1 would not be
> a long-lasting one if you never attended another session. If you
> skipped #2 and #3, you were out. As long as you followed up #1 with
> either either #2 or #3, you were covered on a long-term basis,
> because you would have 2-4 all the way until #1 was aged out.
>
> Is this unfair disenfranchisement? I don't think so. The rules grant
> membership liberally at the first session, but the initial few
> sessions are important. Typically, a bunch of new people show up at
> Session #1 to get membership. That's fine; this is what the rules
> say, and it's how it ought to be. But that membership covers only the
> first three sessions. If you can't be bothered to participate in #2
> or #3, then you lose your membership. Fair enough, in my view. I
> don't think that Session #1 ought to buy you a free one-year
> membership pass.
>
> Further, there is more to the story. If, for instance, you
> participate in Session #4, then you will qualify for 2-of-4 when you
> come to Session #5, so you can earn your membership back. Fair enough.
>
> In my opinion, the startup rules are brilliantly designed. However,
> they are poorly executed. I think we simply ought to fix the
> execution.
>
> By the way, in 802.16, the membership rules are translated from those
> in 802 to make them clean and simple. I'd like to see the 802 rules
> follow this same approach. The rules are here
> <http://ieee802.org/16/membership.html>. In summary, they read:
>
> *Membership is granted at each 802.16 LMSC Plenary Session to those
> in attendance who have participated in at least two recent 802.16
> Sessions, one of which was an 802.16 LMSC Plenary Session.
>
> *At the end of each 802 LMSC Plenary Session, membership is lost by
> those who have not participated in at least two recent 802 Sessions,
> one of which was an 802 LMSC Plenary Session.
>
> All the rest is just definitions of "participation" and "recent
session."
>
> Roger
>
>
> >Hi Everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> >So far, I haven't seen a lot of comment on my suggestion that we
> >interpret the rules. The email trail to date is given below. To
> >summarize what I have heard so far (based on the e-mail trail):
> >
> >1) At least some of us believe that membership based on SG
> >attendance was originally discussed by 802 and intentionally avoided
> >in the current rules
> >
> >2) Al least some of us believe that the intent of the current
> >rules was indeed to give anyone present at the initial meeting
> >voting rights under the assumption they would continue to attend
> >
> >3) At least some of us believe that "meeting" really meant
> >"meeting", not "session" in the current new WG membership rules
> >
> >4) At least some of up believe the chair of a new WG should have
> >the discretion to interpret "meeting" as "session" since
> >participation is only defined per session (currently)
> >
> > In addition I have seen some side traffic concerning other process
> >issues relevant to the upcoming 802.20 elections. However, the
> >focus of my interpretation request is really on whether or not the
> >membership in 802.20 is valid, not on the election process itself.
> >I encourage others to start dealing with that topic if they feel it
> >is an issue. Based on the comments to date, I would have to say
> >that the rule in error is the one that determines membership
> >retention. Based on that my recommended interpretation would be to
> >interpret section 5.1.3.2 titled "Retention" to read:
> >
> > "Membership is retained by participating in at least two
> >of the last four Plenary session meetings. One duly constituted
> >interim Working Group or task group meeting may be substituted for
> >one of the two Plenary meetings. (In the case of a new working group
> >with less than 4 meetings, it is assumed that the 4 plenary sessions
> >prior to the formation of the group were attended by the new WG
> >members when determining if membership is retained.)"
> >
> >I want to clearly establish before the interim what the membership
> >status of 802.20 members will be for that meeting. This
> >interpretation would enforce that membership in that WG is
> >maintained until it can unambiguously be demonstrated that the
> >retention requirements were not met. If anyone objects to this
> >interpretation please state so, and why they believe so. I want to
> >have a full 30 day ballot on an interpretation and I want to make
> >sure I get it right before I put it forward. That is why I am
> >trying to get inputs now. Please tell me what you think.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Mat
> >
> >Matthew Sherman
> >Vice Chair, IEEE 802
> >Technology Consultant
> >Communications Technology Research
> >AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
> >Room B255, Building 103
> >180 Park Avenue
> >P.O. Box 971
> >Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
> >Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
> >Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
> >EMAIL: mjsherman@att.com
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Rigsbee, Everett O [mailto:everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com]
> >Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 3:42 PM
> >To: Grow, Bob; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
> >
> >
> >
> >Bob, I agree completely. The practice in the past has been to
> >grant voting rights based only on attendance at the first official
> >meeting of the first plenary session. But since our rules only
> >refer to "participation" in the first session, I am willing to allow
> >the WG chair to define exactly what is meant by participation. In
> >this case however where you only have a temporary chair who may have
> >a stake in the outcome of the voting this may very well become the
> >minefield to which you refer. Already there has been quite a bit of
> >dickering over what constitutes valid participation. That's why I
> >think we need a re-run with the rules clearly spelled out in
> >advance, so that everyone has a fair chance to participate. Let's
> >hope Geoff can bring his usual measure of sanity to the process.
> >J
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanx, Buzz
> >Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> >Boeing - SSG
> >PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> >Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> >(425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
> >everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Grow, Bob [mailto:bob.grow@intel.com]
> >Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:05 AM
> >To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
> >
> >
> >
> >Buzz may be the longest term SEC member, but I think I have a
> >slightly different long term perspective as having been in the 802
> >trenches the longest of any SEC member. Since 1981 I have
> >participated in (and I think had voting rights on): 802.2 (as an
> >802 voter), 802.3, 802.4 (when it was part of the Token DLMAC),
> >802.5, 802.6, 802.9 and 802.11. I have had membership in two
> >working groups at the same time. I have been involved in the
> >organization of Working Group(s) (802.5 when 802 got dots, and
> >either one or both of 802.6 and 802.9) becoming a member at an
> >initial meeting. My recollection is that received member rights at
> >an organizational meeting, independent of session attendance during
> >the plenary week. While long term historical perspective is
> >enlightening, it may also be a mine field.
> >
> >
> >
> >--Bob Grow
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mjsherman@research.att.com [mailto:mjsherman@research.att.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 7:53 PM
> >To: everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com; stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
> >
> >Buzz,
> >
> >
> >
> >Much appreciated, and very enlightening!
> >
> >
> >
> >Mat
> >
> >
> >
> >Matthew Sherman
> >Vice Chair, IEEE 802
> >Technology Consultant
> >Communications Technology Research
> >AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
> >Room B255, Building 103
> >180 Park Avenue
> >P.O. Box 971
> >Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
> >Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
> >Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
> >EMAIL: mjsherman@att.com
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Rigsbee, Everett O [mailto:everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 10:46 PM
> >To: Sherman,Matthew J (Matthew); stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >Subject: RE: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
> >
> >
> >
> >Colleagues, Matt Sherman has raised some good points for us to
consider.
> >
> >
> >
> >As our now longest-term member of the SEC, I believe I can speak to
> >the intention of the current rules based on prior discussions going
> >back to when the rules were created. The intention behind section
> >5.1.3.1 was that all attendees who participated in the first
> >official plenary meeting would be automatically granted full voting
> >rights (membership) on a grandfathered basis (as though they had
> >attended the two prior plenaries) so that there would be a pool of
> >eligible members (voters) to allow for quorum establishment and
> >transaction of committee business. Otherwise a new working group
> >would be unable to transact any business for two meetings, something
> >that was deemed unacceptable. There was consideration given to
> >having a participation requirement based on the preliminary
> >activities of an initial Study Group, but my recollection is that
> >study groups were viewed as possibly transitory and unstable
> >entities, which were subject to changes and might not be fully
> >attended by the major players until such time as a PAR was
> >officially approved. So the intention was that the fairest basis
> >was to allow everyone who was willing to commit to active
> >participation at the first official meeting should be treated as
> >equal participants and granted full membership.
> >
> >
> >
> >Every new Working Group and TAG that has come aboard has had this
> >same basic rule, so it has worked fairly well. However this is the
> >very first instance that I'm aware of, in which all of the officers
> >elected had not been participants of the prior Study group which
> >created the PAR. With the exception of Peter Tarrant, who led the
> >Hi-Speed LAN Study Group that ultimately morphed into 100BASE-T and
> >802.12, the person who was chair of the Study Group has always been
> >elected to Chair the Working Group or TAG. There was some serious
> >controversy about that particular dynamic as well.
> >
> >
> >
> >I personally believe that the correct course for us will be to
> >maintain the voters list from the Dallas meeting and run a roll call
> >election at the July plenary. Anyone who qualified as a voter in
> >Dallas should be entitled to vote in SF whether they attend the
> >interim or not. Once the outcome is officially recorded, the SEC
> >can address any remaining issues of block voting based on the data,
> >rather than on a lot of hearsay and opinion. At least there is some
> >opportunity in the meantime to find some compromise solutions which
> >may allow the problem to solve itself. Time heals all wounds. J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanx, Buzz
> >Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> >Boeing - SSG
> >PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> >Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> >(425) 865-2443 Fx: (425) 865-6721
> >everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: mjsherman@research.att.com [mailto:mjsherman@research.att.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 6:14 PM
> >To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> >Subject: [802SEC] WG Initial membership interpretation
> >
> >
> >
> >Gentle-folks:
> >
> >
> >
> >I wish to call to your attention to a particular section of Robert's
> >Rules. That section is the following from Article IX of Robert's
> >Rules (10th edition):
> >
> >
> >
> > "If a bylaw is ambiguous, it must be interpreted, if
> >possible, in harmony with other bylaws. The interpretations should
> >be in accordance with the intention of the society at the time the
> >bylaw was adopted, as far as this can be determined. Again, intent
> >plays no role unless the meaning is unclear or uncertain, but where
> >an ambiguity exists, a majority vote is all that is required to
> >decide the question. The ambiguous or doubtful expression should be
> >amended as soon as practicable."
> >
> >
> >
> >I am of the opinion that our "bylaws" (the LMSC P&P) are in fact
> >"ambiguous or doubtful" regarding the process of obtaining
> >membership at the start up of a working group. In particular we
> >have from section 5.1.3.1 titled "Establishment":
> >
> >
> >
> > "All persons participating in the initial meeting of the
> >Working Group become members of the Working Group."
> >
> >
> >
> >On the other hand we have from section 5.1.3.2 titled "Retention":
> >
> >
> >
> > "Membership is retained by participating in at least two
> >of the last four Plenary session meetings. One duly constituted
> >interim Working Group or task group meeting may be substituted for
> >one of the two Plenary meetings."
> >
> >
> >
> >As was so well explained by Tony (thank you for the excellent
> >analysis) in an earlier e-mail, these two rules clearly seem to be
> >at odds with one another. Setting aside for a moment the question
> >of whether or not we intended "meeting" or "session" in section
> >5.1.3.1 (a topic for yet another interpretation) these two rules
> >seem to conflict with one another. Even taking the liberal view
> >that meeting means session, after the first session the general
> >rules would kick in and all "members" would seem to lose their
> >membership in the WG.
> >
> >
> >
> >All this said, we already have a P&P change ballot which should
> >"fix" this problem by the end of the July meeting. My concern is
> >for the beginning of the July meeting. Given what happened in March
> >to 802.20, I would like to have a clearer interpretation of these
> >"bylaws" so that we don't have a repeat of the last meeting. As
> >indicated by Robert's Rules, an interpretation can be established by
> >majority vote. I believe a motion could be put forward and then
> >approved electronically prior to the July meeting. But before I do
> >that, I wanted to open this issue for debate prior to making any
> >motions so that I can make sure I make the right motion (or perhaps
> >chose not to make a motion at all).
> >
> >
> >
> >Any comments on this topic?
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> >Mat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Matthew Sherman
> >Vice Chair, IEEE 802
> >Technology Consultant
> >Communications Technology Research
> >AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
> >Room B255, Building 103
> >180 Park Avenue
> >P.O. Box 971
> >Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
> >Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
> >Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
> >EMAIL: mjsherman@att.com
> >
> >
>