Buzz -
I agree - this is a slippery slope. In .1 we have very occasionally allowed dial in access
where there was a specific topic that needed expert input - the most recent example being
MIB discussions - but we have done it only for that topic, not as a blanket facility for
the meeting. I believe it really only works under very limited circumstances - namely,
where the caller(s)-in are the primary focus of the discussion, rather than where people
are calling in just for regular participation.
Regards,
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On
Behalf Of Rigsbee, Everett O
Sent: 10 January 2009 19:39
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
Hi Mat, Again I urge you to be careful of the slippery slope here. Our
rules don't actually prohibit setting off bombs in the meeting rooms or
pantsing the WG Chairs but that doesn't mean we necessarily want to
allow that to go on either. Just because we can do something doesn't
mean we should.
Virtual attendance is very hard to regulate and ensure that people are
tuned in to what is going on, and is subject to abuse by those who wish
to employ dominance within the WG. So I would suggest that you are
correct that it may be likely to make most sense in the context of an
ECSG.
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
Boeing IT
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
Cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
[mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:17 AM
To: Rigsbee, Everett O; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
Buzz / All,
Please see responses in line below.
Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Network Systems (NS)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Rigsbee, Everett O [mailto:everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:00 PM
To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA); STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
Gee Mat, Is it at least possible to actually see the proposed
hypothesis and metrics ???
**** Mat - Yes. They are still being formalized, but will be available
shortly
Forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of the value of this but I have
been talking with my counterpart at the IETF, who have been doing this
kind facility for years and they've cutback on it substantially because
they found that it was getting more & more expensive and hard to
support, and that it was seriously hurting their attendance at some key
forums. It also make it almost impossible to track actual
participation: something we still seem to think is important.
**** Mat - Yes these are key issues. There is both good and bad to be
discussed. In person attendance may go down, but that may mean that it
costs less to develop standards. If it is the same quality standard,
isn't that a good thing?
Maybe it's OK for start-up events such as ECSGs where broadest
participation is a key ingredient, but I would be careful about
attempting to make it an integral part of our ongoing Working Group
sessions because of the perceived negative impact on actual
participation.
**** Mat - This is just an experiment. The idea is to bring the data to
the EC for consideration if this should be generally permitted at all.
If permitted, I think it would be on be on a WG by WG basis. Note that
I consider the ECSG unique in that it has participation from across many
working groups (some of which may not normally participate in the
Wireless Interim), and outside organizations who don't normally attend
802. In addition some participants have lost their sponsorship (or
perhaps never had any) and are looking for lower cost means to
participate. Since the ECSG has no membership (whoever shows up can
vote) and we already take votes on teleconferences, it is probably an
ideal vehicle to run an experiment with. Note that letter ballots for
SG are prohibited in the rules, so the only way we can vote between
meetings in on teleconferences.
Maybe in these times of severe economic stress it makes sense for us to
explore some other avenues for WG participation but I would suggest that
we use a metric that such participation is made reliably trackable and
that it require registration & fees that at least covers the costs of
any such special provisions. It would be patently unfair to saddle the
already burdened in-person attendees with the cost of allowing access
for electronic attendees.
**** Mat - Agree 100%!!!!!
We need to discuss and think through these kind of changes carefully
before making any significant changes in our policies and procedures.
**** Mat - Strangely enough, there are no rules expressly prohibiting
this today. Traditionally (with reason) it is not permitted by IEEE
802, but that fact is not written down. I agree no changes in the P&P
should be made one way or the other without careful consideration.
Thanks for the inputs!
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
Boeing IT
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
Cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
[mailto:matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:54 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
EC Members,
I have received requests from TV Whitespace ECSG members to allow
electronic participation (teleconference / Webex) for the ECSG meetings
at the upcoming Wireless Interim in LA. I have discussed this with the
IEEE 802.11 Chair (Bruce) who has no objection, and made sure that
appropriate facilities are available. I checked with the IEEE 802 chair
(Paul) who said he would permit electronic participation for the ECSG at
the interim if it was conducted as an 'Experiment' (with hypothesis and
metrics) to see if it adds clear value to the standards process.
Accordingly we have formulated a hypothesis and metrics and plan to
conduct three two hour meetings at the wireless interim that include
electronic participation, and will conduct straw polls at the end of the
session to see if the metrics support our hypothesis. We will make the
results of this experiment available to the EC at the March session,
along with other planned outputs from the ECSG.
If you have any questions about this, please feel free to contact me.
Best Regards,
Matthew Sherman
Chair, IEEE802 Whitespace ECSG
BAE Systems - Network Systems (NS)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
<mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>
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