Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
Mat:
Now you provoked me to go and search. I like Roger could not find a registration for LMSC, though the searches typically only show up registered marks, not things on which someone has slapped a TM.
Having spent some time managing trademarks for a company, I'm arrogant enough to think I remember something about the topic, so here is the amature lawyer thing (if you want a real legal opinion about anything, send me the questions and I'll talk to them this week.
LMSC is a group, not a product and therefore as I understand it, can't be trademarked (for our usage), any previously trademarked usage would only be within a specific class of products.
We could put a circle R after any occurrence of a registered trademark. IEEE is a registered trade mark, 802 is a registered trade mark, and Get IEEE 802 is a registered service mark.
IEEE-SA has made the determination of how to brand standards (not us). And yes, as a result we put a TM after the name of a standard, (e.g., IEEE Std 802.11[superscript TM]). The standards are a product of IEEE and therefore can be trademarked. I expect we could also write it as IEEE(R) Std 802(R).11TM, but that isn't too readable, hence the simplification of only using the TM (which trademarks the complete string).
The 802 registration can be found at: (http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/portal/tow?SRCH=Y&isSubmitted=true&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=75437698#),
listed for:
Publications, namely, pamphlets of standards and specifications for local and metropolitan area networks, in Class 16...
The Get IEEE 802 registration can be found at: (http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/portal/tow?SRCH=Y&isSubmitted=true&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=75437698),
listed for:
Providing wireless standards for local and metropolitan area communications networks, in Class 16...
The 802 registered mark is also associated with our IEEE 802 logo in search results, the mixing of our Sponsor and the registered 802 mark.
--Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 5:46 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
Bob,
I think it's a question of how do we want to brand our standards. "Get 802" "IEEE 802", and I believe we Put TM after most of our standards, all of which have "802" in the name. I don't know of any standards which have LMSC in the title...
So while I know of no reason today not to name our committee LMSC, I think it makes more sense for us to tighten our identity with the standards we created. But I don't have a strong feeling really. I'll go either way. But right now, sometimes we call ourselves IEEE 802, and sometimes LMSC in our governance. I'd prefer to use one name unambiguously.
What I had planned to do was at the beginning of each governance document establish both titles (IEEE 802 and LMSC) and then use exclusively IEEE 802 for all other references to ourselves in the Governance.
There was also a debate at one point as to what IEEE 802 is - The EC (Sponsor), or the sponsor and all its subgroups. Right now I'm using the definition that it includes the EC and all its subgroups. You could associate one name with the EC (say IEEE 802) and the other for the conglomeration of the EC and all its subgroups (LMSC) but I'm not planning to do that at this time. Again, I'm open to influence, but I believe the topic was debated a couple years ago and that was the consensus at the time.
V/R,
Mat
Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grow, Bob
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:38 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
All:
I do not believe there is any problem with LMSC. That is the name of the committee approved by IEEE-SA. Project 802 is defunct. IEEE 802 is a registered trademark of IEEE-SA, but that doesn't stop Wayne Gretsky from using 802 on hockey equipment, or others from using 802 in another product area.
We do not brand anything with LMSC other than the committee. Trademarks must be associated with a product as I recall.
I'll be happy to ask the IEEE lawyer this week if there is a problem, but the name of the Sponsor as far as IEEE-SA is concerned is LAN/MAN Standards Committee, which they identify and abbreviate in my Project as C/LM. I argue against any change.
--Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 9:20 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
Hi Matt, LMSC was an abbreviation for Lockheed Missiles & Space Company.
I know this because my stepfather worked for them for years. I suspect it
is now a defunct designation given the evolution of Lockheed, just as BDSG,
which was a trademark for the Boeing Defense and Space Group, is now
defunct. Matt, I would suggest that you do a global Search and Replace of
LMSC with IEEE-802 and then let IEEE ask their legal department if they
think using LMSC in the future will be a problem for us. I sincerely doubt
it but it is probably worth getting an official determination just to be
safe. :-)
Thanx, Buzz
Please note my contact info:
Dr. Everett O (Buzz) Rigsbee
Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
7750 80th Place SE
Mercer Island, WA 98040-5912
ph/fx: 206-236-2229
cell: 206-818-4978
BRigsB@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org] On
Behalf Of Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:23 PM
To: Todd Glassey
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; 'James Gilb'
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
Todd,
I'm not a lawyer, but we have been using LMSC for as long as I can remember.
I think things are context sensitive, and perhaps it could be argued that
our context is different enough from Lockheed's, but I'd prefer not to
venture an opinion.
One thing I will say is that in my editing instructions (not part of the
documents) I encouraged the use of IEEE 802 rather than LMSC just for
consistency. But old habits die hard, and clearly I've been slipping
backwards a bit. I guess this would be one more reason to favor IEEE 802
over LMSC for a title and I will once more endeavor to do so...
Thanks,
Mat
Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Engineering Fellow
BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
Office: +1 973.633.6344
Cell: +1 973.229.9520
email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Glassey [mailto:tglassey@earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:05 AM
To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; 'James Gilb'
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Updated LMSC OM and LMSC P&P
Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA) wrote:
> James,
>
> Attached please find an updated LMSC Operations Manual and a new LMSC
Working Group Policies and Procedure for posting.
>
> All,
>
> For reference, I have taken the documents approved last week and done
purely formatting changes to make them appropriate for posting. The one
non-editorial change was in the section of the OM on directed positions.
There was one broken link I missed that would have pointed to a section
moved to the new WG P&P. For now, I have deleted the pointer (it does not
change any of the meanings). We can add it back later if desired.
>
> For reference I have created rev's 1 and 2 of documents EC 09-006 and
09-007 (the LMSC OM and LMSC WG P&P balloted). Rev 1 includes the
formatting and editorial changes I performed for reference in revisions
mode. Rev 2 is a clean (final) version of each document.
>
> I still need to finish formatting clean-up of the LMSC P&P and forward
that to AudCom for posting. I plan to complete that later today.
>
> The changes for the LMSC WG P&P were big and messy. Hopefully we are now
past the phase of massive changes and can now focus on smaller targeted
changes to improve our operations. For my own benefit, I plan to start work
on a LMSC OM revision to fix minor editorial issues, and simplify the LMSC
OM revision process (make it the same as the LMSC P&P except that it can be
changed more than once a year). During the March Plenary I will be
accepting other EC members personal pet peeves (as long as the changes
aren't too massive) for inclusion in a catch all rev to the LMSC OM that I
am willing to run. Please don't send your desired changes now as I'd prefer
not to stock pile at this point. At the end of the March Plenary I plan to
initiate another LMSC OM revision for the catch all changes.
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Mat
>
Mat LMSC is a registered trademark of Lockheed a tech company as I
recall - did anyone think about this?
Todd Glassey
> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
> Engineering Fellow
> BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
> Office: +1 973.633.6344
> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
> email:
matthew.sherman@baesystems.com<mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>
>
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