Re: [802SEC] Fwd: Webex meeting changed: 802 Seat 1 - Ad-hoc on Rule Changes

[Geoff Thompson <thompson@IEEE.ORG>]

Joseph-

I assert that there are no actions of the EC that are so urgent (with possible exception of radio regulatory filings) that completing them precludes a consensus decision according to our rules.  IF the Chair is in the presence (virtual or real) of a quorum of the EC voting members THEN the decision whether or not to suspend the rules belongs to the body, not the Chair.  The Chair does not have the ability "to dismiss parliament" because the body of the EC doesn't agree with him or among themselves. If the EC has lost quorum then the in-meeting rules don't apply

Nothing we do is so time sensitive that schedule overrides consensus.  That is the underlying principle of standards.  

Geoff

On Apr 21, 2020, at 5:11 PMPDT, Joseph Levy <Joseph.Levy@InterDigital.com> wrote:

HI Geoff, 

 

The reason I made the change was to cover the case that the Chair may need to act during a meeting (F2F or Electronic) to allow time sensitive work to complete when an extraordinary external circumstance causes a need for the rules to be changed to allow the work to complete.  e.g. the snow storm/dark and stormy night type incident:  where business could not be completed due to a lack of EC members being present (due to them leaving).

Then the problem can be solved with a quorum call. If there is no quorum, there is no meeting

The Chair could change the rules so that critical business could be completed even though 2/3 of the EC were not available.  Note, that any decision made in this manner would be open to appeal, hence there is a method to reverse any decision made this way. 

Resolving things by appeal usually takes a great deal of time.  Should the appeal succeed that in turn would involve unwinding approvals of PARS or standards.  That is potentially very messy and unsatisfactory.

If the extraordinary external circumstance do not happen during an ongoing meeting, I assume there is no time sensitive work that was interrupted and hence no need for the Chair to act in such a manner to allow time sensitive work to complete.  These other circumstances could be address by the first method 2/3’s EC approval.

 

I can’t think of another method to allow for time sensitive actions

We have a fundamental disagreement as to which is more important in standards, schedule or consensus.

to be completed expediently, and I trust the Chair to use this power judiciously.         

 

Joseph 

 

From: Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:37 PM
To: Joseph Levy <Joseph.Levy@InterDigital.com>
Cc: Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org>; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: Webex meeting changed: 802 Seat 1 - Ad-hoc on Rule Changes

 

Joseph-

 

I object to your second modification.

The Chair should not get to unilaterally suspend the rules in the middle of a face-to-face meeting.

If he doesn't have the support of the body of the EC it should not happen.

802 had exactly that sort of instance in July of 1993, even though the rules didn't allow it.

It created a horrible mess.

Changes to 802 procedures were put in place after that event precisely to transfer power from the chair to the consensus of the EC.

In the rest of the Standards Association, the person who used to be called "the Sponsor" was all powerful.

(I'm not sure if that is still the case.)

I know of one instance where a standards project was created just because that one person thought it was "a good idea."

The project was completed and completely ignored by the market.

 

Geoff

 

 

On Apr 16, 2020, at 9:26 AMPDT, Joseph Levy <Joseph.Levy@InterDigital.com> wrote:

 

A couple of additional suggestions:

 

1. Current P&P uses the following style for votes/motions:  e.g A Non-Voting Member may be removed by a two-thirds vote of the Voting Members of the Standards Committee. Grounds for removal shall be included in any motion to remove a Non-Voting Member.
   Hence I suggest replacing the first sentence with the following two sentences, as follows: 
   In case of an extraordinary external circumstance that prevents the ordinary conduct of business, suspension or modification of any OM procedure may be made for a specified period of time by a two-thirds vote of the Voting Members of the LMSC.  The OM procedure and the period of time that the procedure is suspended or modified shall be included the motion. 
2. Regarding the additional ability of the Chair to suspend or modify, I support Geoff’s suggestion, but don’t support the additional restriction of “when the Standards Committee is not meeting”, as that will restrict the use of this ability to allow action when the rules prevent action and the circumstance demand action – in my view this could occur during a meeting.  Also, I think linking the duration of the suspension or modification to a motion is not desired.  In my view this ability is only desired to allow the completion of some critical business that is being restricted by the rules and circumstance – so I suggest we tie it to the business that needs to be conducted.  Therefore, I suggest the following modified text:
   In such a circumstance, to enable business to be conducted the Standards Committee Chair may suspend or modify any OM procedure upon explicit declaration.  The Chair's suspension or modification terminates immediately upon a stated objection of any LMSC voting member or the completion of the business being conducted.  
    

 

Joseph 

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 12:40 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: Webex meeting changed: 802 Seat 1 - Ad-hoc on Rule Changes

 

Roger-

 

I reworked it a little for clarity and made it more explicit a couple of places.

Didn't change anything except that I added the requirement that the chair explicitly declare that he is making a rule suspension.

 

In case of an extraordinary external circumstance that prevents the ordinary conduct of business, suspension or modification of any OM procedure for a specified period of time is permitted subject to approval by a motion with 2/3 of LMSC voting members voting approve. In such a circumstance, when the Standards Committee is not meeting, the Standards Committee Chair may suspend or modify any OM procedure upon explicit declaration thereof. This shall be in effect until such a rule suspension motion of the Standards Committee is completed; however, the Chair's suspension or modification terminates immediately upon the stated objection of any LMSC voting member. 

 

Geoff

 

On Apr 15, 2020, at 12:59 PMPDT, Roger Marks <r.b.marks@IEEE.ORG> wrote:

 

Here is the noin-final text that was discussed on today's call as an update to the initial proposal below on handling extra-ordinary events:

 

In case of an extraordinary external circumstance that prevents the ordinary conduct of business, suspension or modification of any OM procedure for a specified period of time is permitted subject to approval by a motion with 2/3 of LMSC voting members voting approve.  In such a circumstance, the Standards Committee Chair may suspend or modify any OM procedure [when the Standards Committee is not meeting?] [for a specified period of time?] [until such a motion of the Standards Committee is completed?]; however, the suspension or modification terminates immediately upon the stated objection of any LMSC voting member. 

 

Roger

On Apr 13, 2020, 6:02 PM -0600, James P. K. Gilb <000008e8b69871c2-dmarc-request@listserv.ieee.org>, wrote:

All

Our next ad-hoc meeting on rule changes will occur on Wednesday, 15
April 2020, at 12 noon.

We will be discussing the proposal:
======================
In order to handle extra-ordinary events, should we add to the following
to the OM:

The Standards Committee Chair may suspend or modify any OM procedure for
a specified period of time as long as there is no objection from an LMSC
voting member.

If there is an objection, the Standards Committee Chair can either hold
10 day electronic ballot with early close or call for a vote in a
meeting, for a motion to suspend or modify for a specified period of
time any OM procedure with 2/3 of LMSC voting members voting approve.
=====================

Justification:
1) While we might anticipate some disruptions, we can't predict all
unpredictable events.
2) While this allows the Standards Committee Chair to act
expeditiously, the rights of the minority are preserved by allowing
objection by any member
3) The Standards Committee can, through an early close ballot, resolve
the issue very quickly, potentially within hours.

If time permits, we will discuss a possible electronic procedure for PAR
approval in the event we don't meet in person in July 2020.

The minutes from the meeting to date can be found at:
https://mentor.ieee.org/802-ec/dcn/20/ec-20-0064-00-00EC-rules-ad-hoc-minutes-2020.odt

Meeting information below and attached.

James Gilb


802 Seat 1 - Ad-hoc on Rule Changes

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