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Re: [802SEC] Mixed Mode Meeting -- Guiding Principles Discussion

I'm with Chad on the first point - for the same reasons and some other reasons.
A room full of people staring at their screen and wearing headsets is not a face to face meeting.
The ability to look around the room and see who's looking up from their screen and when during discussion is a HUGE value to building technical consensus.  It provides a lot of information as to who is interested in what, who to talk to over coffee or whatever, where we have points of common interest and potential differences in the group - all kinds of information critical to building both technical consensus and high quality technical content for our standards. 

The importance of this varies depending on the purpose of the meeting and the nature of the group as well as the stage of the project.  But it is a key value of in person attendance. When we combine in person meetings augmented by virtual meetings (we still call them teleconference calls), we have a proven set of tools for producing high quality, useful standards.  Many things are done effectively remotely. Many of those things can be done effectively because of the work done and relationships built during the in person meetings.  

The goal should be to improve upon what we have.  Leverage what we've learned from the last 18 months and the last 40 years to continue to improve and grow.

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <> on behalf of Chad Jones (cmjones) <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Mixed Mode Meeting -- Guiding Principles Discussion

Roger, I want no part of multiple people sitting in the same room and relying on them to remember to mute to not cause a feedback storm every few minutes. Nor do I want to sit with headphones the whole time while I’m in a room with other people – I might as well stay at home. Hell, I don’t wear headphones at home for most meetings having a nice soundbar for the audio and a decent built-in mic in my PC.


I agree with George that we don’t need to discuss participant classes yet, we will be doing our best to make the mixed-mode meetings work. My point of bringing this topic up is my fear if we do too good a job at allowing mixed mode we will never not do it again. I also fear the defiant participant that will complain that they were disenfranchised (because some vote didn’t go their way or whatever topic they feel slights them) because they CHOSE to not travel to a meeting. We all know these types.



Chad Jones

Technical Leader, Cisco Systems

Chair, IEEE P802.3da Task Force

Principal, NFPA 70 CMP3



From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <> on behalf of Roger Marks <r.b.marks@IEEE.ORG>
Reply-To: Roger Marks <r.b.marks@IEEE.ORG>
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Mixed Mode Meeting -- Guiding Principles Discussion



I would like to propose a radical simplification of the technology for hybrid meetings that would eliminate much of the complexity and also help equalize the participation.

The proposal is to eliminate all audio-visual facilities. Those in the meeting room would interact with the meeting just as those externally do: using a connected device with a headset. They will mute their mic except when speaking.

People who attend in-person will gain the advantages I’ve seen cited as the best reasons to maintain in-person attendance.

I’m happy to hear opinions about what problems this would cause (e.g., assessing the bandwidth implications) and how they might be managed.





On Aug 23, 2021, 8:54 AM -0600, IEEE <>, wrote:

Steve, Beth, Chad, Andrew, Jon L., John D., and others –
I’ve spent quite a while reading through emails this weekend, thinking about the content, and doing a substantial reorganization of the document (so much so that track changes was useless), and incorporating thoughts from these emails.    You can find my revised document as
I apologize that it is so substantially different, but I think the new format is clearer, and most of the thoughts are the same.

A great thanks to Beth for providing a clearer organization of the document, separating definitions, equipment, roles and practices.
Also, thanks to Jon Lewis, for an offline review of the document.

A few things I want to set straight:
 1. This is NOT a rules document.  Not even close.  Rules has to go through the rules process, and we are not ready for that.  We need to get on the same page as to what we might do (and find out if it is implementable) before we even begin drafting rules.  Think of it as bullet points before drafting and MoU, and the rules would be a definitive agreement.  Quite a distance to travel.
 2. This description is NOT static or final.  I expect it to be revised as we get some experience.  We are trying to get a strawman for our FIRST mixed-mode meeting.  I fully expect we will learn and revise after the first one.  Probably even after the second.  I also expect there are likely to be no fewer than 3 such sessions – but that’s just my opinion looking into he future and the uncertainty that surrounds us.
 3. No one individual gets to say when we go back to face-to-face, that is for the EC to decide.  Financially and contractually not going to Orlando has issues to be worked.  If we need to, we will work them – but the decision is the EC’s.

That said, I have highlighted questions and new thoughts in the document with yellow highlight.  Things I expect to have a lot of discussion on (and therefore aren’t set).

Some of the biggest questions from the email trail revolve around 2 issues:
 1. Do we put restrictions on what reasons may be offered for individuals not attending in person?
 2. Do we have a second class of remote attendee? (an observer or inactive participant)

These are substantial issues with long-term repercussions.
On the first, I suggest that 802 can’t really be an arbiter of why an attendee isn’t coming to the meetings.  We can ask for attestation, and rely on the integrity and ethics of our attendees to honestly answer.  We all assert that we attend these meetings under the IEEE code of ethics.  As far as enforcement, I suggest 802 can also monitor the travel situation and see if it appears we are getting honest responses, and take corrective action if need be.

On the second, I would suggest that establishing a second class of remote attendee is something to consider for the long term, but we should not burden ourselves with it now.  We have too much to do.  I would NOT support 802 putting individual members into a class with reduced privileges without due process, and I do not believe we need to define that at this time.


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