--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Chairs' Advisory Committee Reflector ---
Hi All,
While I agree with Stephen’s points on recording of straw poll votes: that it is a burden to the Secretary, adds unnecessary complexity thereby under mining their intended quick and simple nature, and is not allowed by our Operations Manual.
I all so understand the current operating rules as outlined by Jon.
It seems to me that TGs seem to be using straw polls as pre-motion screens and are then lumping a large number of issues into a single motions after the individual items have “passed” a straw poll (meeting the 75% majority). As Jon says
this is basically looking for consensus of those present at the meeting. However, I am concerned that this practice may enable “block” voting and create dominance issues and since there is no record or analysis of these votes unacceptable behaviors may be
occurring without our knowledge. As it is the responsibility of the 802.11 leadership to ensure that there is no dominance in the WG and its TGs, the Chairs are responsible is to verify that dominance behaviors are not occurring [802.11 OM (Clause 4.7.5 for
TG Chairs), and WG Chairs’ responsibility 802 OM (Clauses 3.2.1.1 and 3.2.3.2)]. Therefore, I believe that the Chair or their designee should be reviewing all votes (straw polls and motions) to look for signs that an organization or consortium is dominating
the TG or WG. How the Chair meets this responsibility is not specified, but I believe that the evaluation of voting and attendance patterns are tools a Chair should use to meet this responsibility. Currently, I don’t believe that anyone is looking at the
voting and attendance data to determine if undesired behavior is occurring.
Regards,
Joseph
From: *** IEEE stds-802-11-cac List *** <STDS-802-11-CAC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Behalf Of Jon Rosdahl
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 5:53 PM
To: STDS-802-11-CAC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-CAC] Recorded voting for straw polls
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Chairs' Advisory Committee Reflector ---
The recorded Polls from Webex are only if required for Motions.
It is not appropriate to provide Strawpoll results by individual.
Strawpolls are not binding, they provide a means to understand the consensus in the room (or on a call).
While some may say that motions need to be formed after greater than 75% is attained in a Strawpoll, what they are really saying is that they are striving for consensus prior
to motions.
But the Strawpoll itself is not the binding element, but rather a tool to determine the consensus of the group at the time the strawpoll was taken prior to making a motion.
No Task Group should be using Strawpolls as binding or formal decisions. They are a tool to look for consensus.
No Task Group chair should be sharing the details from Webex with anyone other than those required for minutes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rosdahl Engineer, Senior Staff
IEEE 802 Executive Secretary Qualcomm Technologies, Inc.
office: 801-492-4023 10871 North 5750 West
cell: 801-376-6435 Highland, UT 84003
A Job is only necessary to eat!
A Family is necessary to be happy!!
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Chairs' Advisory Committee Reflector ---
thanks for raising this issue.
My answer is no for two reasons:
1) Straw polls "...are typically used to select between alternatives before spending (potentially lengthy) time crafting a motion that has a better chance of success. Straw polls have no formal effect; their
outcome is not binding on the operation of any group." [802.11 Operations Manual]. Therefore, it should not be necessary to know the straw poll decision of any individual. If straw polls are being used to determine the technical direction of a task group,
then I think something is wrong.
2) This will place a burden on the secretary to correctly record everyone who participated in a straw poll in the minutes. With the current Webex tool, this is quite easy; but what happens when we return to
face to face meetings? The whole point of a straw poll is to quickly determine the feeling of a group, before moving on.
Ok, back to reality ! I understand what is happening in some task groups and appreciate that for some recent straw poll decisions, it would certainly be useful to have a record of how folks voted. However,
if we want to have an option to allow recorded voting for straw polls, then I think we need to start by updating the 802.11 operations manual or the 802 policies and procedures to formalise straw polls. I personally do not want to go in this direction.
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Chairs' Advisory Committee Reflector ---
Dear CAC,
I would like to add the following discussion item to our agenda for the next CAC call:
Should we record the votes for straw poll by default in the minutes (recorded voting)?
If not by default, I would assume that also for straw polls, a recorded voting is permissible
if requested by an attendee.
For motions, we have this already in place, i.e. ""If a motion is not approved by unanimous consent,
it shall be taken as a roll call [recorded] vote. “
For straw polls, this (default) behavior is not defined.
During in-person / face-to-face meetings, attendees can usually get a rough “visual” feedback
who is voting in support or agains a question. Such visual feedback allows to further engage
with individual members for further discussion, which allows to progress on technical aspects
that the straw poll asks for feedback on.
Such “visual” feedback is missing in virtual meetings.
Proposed alternative actions — please provide feedback:
(a) Straw polls are conducted as recorded votes by default
(b) Straw polls are conducted as recorded votes only upon request, which should be
announced before the vote is taken. Unless requested, individual voting is not recorded
(c) The individual voting for a straw poll is always recorded by the Chair, but the
recorded vote is only included in the minutes if requested by a member (also possible
after the meeting, but within 24 hours after the vote occurred).
I would prefer either option (a) or (b) as the third option (c) adds some overhead for us
as Chairs (need to record the votes and keep them for at least 24 hours even if there
is no request to include them in the minutes).
I would like to avoid situations, in which individual voting is recorded, not included in the
minutes, but feedback on “who voted how” is only provided to the person asking the
question for the straw poll. Any knowledge on “who was in favor / against” should
be made transparently available to all members or to none.
Your feedback is much appreciated.
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