Hi Claudio,
Thanks for the constructive discussion.
See my answers below, signed by [ST1]
I have not yet received comments from people who I believe intended to provide them
Best regards,
Solomon Trainin
+972547885738
From: Claudio Da Silva <claudiodasilva@xxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:15 AM
To: Solomon Trainin <strainin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Comments on 1321r1 and 1322r1
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Hi Solomon,
Thanks for considering my comments on 132r1/1322r1. Please find some additional discussion below.
I’d appreciate if you could let TGbf know if/when a new revision of the documents is uploaded.
Once again, thank you.
Claudio
From: Solomon Trainin <strainin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 4:42 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Comments on 1321r1 and 1322r1
Hi Claudio
Thank you for your comments
Please see my proposals below
Best regards,
Solomon Trainin
+972547885738
From: Claudio Da Silva <000015f3cbee3aeb-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 1:03 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Comments on 1321r1 and 1322r1
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Hi Solomon,
Please find a few technical comments on your contributions 1321r1 and 1322r1 below. I would appreciate if you could consider them.
Thanks,
Claudio
My understanding of 1321 and 1322 is that the following changes are being proposed:
- Modify the current definition of “sensing session” (specifically, “A sensing session is composed of one or more of the following phases: setup phase, measurement phase, reporting phase,
and termination phase.”) with “A sensing session is (a) pairwise agreement between a sensing initiator and a sensing responder to participate in the WLAN sensing procedure” (first paragraph of 1322).
- Add to the SFD the following new definition: “A sensing procedure is composed of one or more of the following: WLAN sensing procedure setup, WLAN sensing measurement instance , and
WLAN sensing termination” (second paragraph of 1322).
If my understanding is correct, I would encourage you to modify the text of the SP found in 1321 to clarify the scope of the proposed changes (redefinition + addition).
[ST] Your understanding of the change is correct. Please note that the SP in document 1321 is devoted to the change of the outline. There are two more SPs in 1322. Do they cover both meanings of the proposed
changes?
[CdS] If your goal is to run a SP on the text in 1321 and then both a SP and motion on 1322, I believe we would be OK given that the scope of the changes is clearly defined in 1322.
The proposed “WLAN sensing procedure” incorporates both TB and non-TB approaches. While both approaches have been discussed in TGbf in the past, only the TB approach has been approved by the group so far (motion 25c). Thus, it is important
to call the group’s attention to the fact that a consequence of approving the changes suggested in 1322r1 would be to define a non-TB approach.
[ST] I am not sure I agree that having it in the outline invites people to define the non-TB approach. Although there is no motion to adopt the non-TB approach yet, contributions 990 and 1015 already discuss this approach. I think
including it in the outline indicates place and order that the definition of the non-TB approach may require if someone thinks to provide it.
[CdS] The intent of my comment was to make it clear to the group that, in addition to fixing technical discrepancies, 1321/1322 also add new concepts to be introduced in the SFD. After today’s (Tuesday’s)
discussion on 1322, I believe this fact is now clear.
The WLAN sensing procedure defined in 1321 is composed of a number of “elements”/”phases” (slide 5), many of which haven’t been discussed in TGbf yet. As a result, several sub-sections proposed to be included in the SFD in 1322 are understandably
empty. At the same time, 1322 includes text for both “WLAN sensing measurement setup termination” and ”WLAN sensing session termination phase.” This topic (termination) is not discussed in 1321 nor in any previous contribution to TGbf. Could you discuss
the proposed addition in 1321 (or in a future contribution)?
[ST] The “Termination phase” already exists in 504. Slide 6 in 1321 illustrates both new proposed terminations. 1322 suggests changes aligned with the overall approach presented in 1321.
[CdS] We had a good number of questions in today’s 11bf call on this exact topic. I guess this proves the point I tried to previously make. Personally, I would leave these additions to a future contribution.
[ST1] I still try to provide and agree on the whole picture. I plan to change the text to make it completely clear and resolve comments if they arrive. I want to think
more if the separation of this part does not harm the entire picture
So that 1321 and 1322 match, “WLAN sensing termination” (defined in 1322) must be defined to include/be composed of “WLAN sensing measurement setup termination” and “WLAN sensing session termination” (defined in 1321). (This is similar
to what is proposed for the setup: “The WLAN sensing procedure setup includes the WLAN sensing session setup and the WLAN sensing measurement setup as defined below (7.1.2, 7.1.3)”.)
[ST] It is fine with me. Do you agree to change the sentence in 1322r1 like ”
WLAN sensing termination includes the sensing session termination and the measurement setup
termination may be terminated as defined in 7.1.5 and 7.1.5a respectively.”?
[CdS] Now we have a total of 3 setup-related and 3 termination-related definitions:
-
WLAN sensing procedure setup, WLAN sensing session setup, WLAN sensing measurement setup
-
WLAN sensing termination, sensing session termination, measurement setup termination
To simplify the text and avoid confusion, I would prefer to not define “WLAN sensing procedure setup” and “WLAN sensing termination.” We could, for example, modify the proposed text as follows:
A sensing procedure is composed of one or more of the following:
WLAN sensing procedure setup, WLAN sensing session setup, WLAN sensing measurement setup, WLAN sensing measurement instance , and
WLAN sensing termination WLAN sensing measurement termination, and WLAN sensing session termination (Motion 15, 20/1851r4).
The WLAN sensing procedure setup includes the
WLAN sensing session setup and the WLAN sensing measurement setup
as are defined below (7.1.2, 7.1.3)
If this doesn’t work, I’m OK with your suggestion above.
[ST1] Yes, I tend to agree that “WLAN sensing procedure setup” and “WLAN sensing termination” are not needed. I am fine with the change
On page 2 of 1322, we have “A sensing session is (a) pairwise agreement between a sensing initiator and a sensing responder to participate in the WLAN sensing procedure.” Given that the text defines that “a sensing session is … agreement
between a sensing initiator and a sensing responder…”, is the word “pairwise” necessary here? (Please note that “pairwise” is defined in 802.11-202, page 167, as a term “used to refer to a type of encryption key hierarchy pertaining to keys shared by only
two entities.”) It may be worth to modify “A sensing session is pairwise and is identified by MAC addresses and/or associated AID/UID” as well (delete “is pairwise and” is OK given that this is already defined in the previous statement).
[ST] Would it be OK with you the following that moves one more sentence to the definition?
A sensing session is an instance of a sensing procedure with associated operational parameters of that instance
pairwise agreement between a sensing initiator and a sensing responder to participate in the WLAN sensing procedure. (Motion 8, 20/1849r4). A sensing session is pairwise and is identified by MAC addresses and/or associated
AID/UID (Motion 23, 21/0644r4).
[CdS] After I found out that pairwise is defined in 802.11-2020 (see screen caption below), and that the term relates to “a type of encryption key hierarchy”, I would avoid using the term altogether. At least
for me, “agreement between a sensing initiator and a sensing responder” makes it very clear that sensing session is “pairwise.”
[ST1] Thank you for pointing me to the definition. The definition is clear, and I think that the way I use, fits it. I believe the indication of how it is used does not
limit to use it in different cases. BTW I can indicate few places in the spec where the use is not about the key hierarchy. I would prefer to keep it as is for now. I think that it helps people to pay attention to the meaning of the session, and each time
I speak about the session, I understand from the questions that the meaning of it is still not clear to many people.
In 1322, the text “NDP can be used for the channel measurement (e.g. CSI)…” is suggested to be moved under “NDPA sounding phase.” Should it also be added to “TF sounding phase”?
[ST] Yes, I agree it is relevant for both, and I am OK to add it to the “ TF sounding phase”
[CdS] Yes, I think we should.
In 1322, the sentence “A sensing session may be comprised of multiple burst instances” is suggested to be replaced with “A WLAN sensing measurement instance may be comprised of multiple phases”. Is this the intent of the original SFD text?
[ST] Neither burst nor burst instance is defined. I hope that I fairly interpret the intention of the author. I expect to get more inputs while presenting.
[CdS] This was also discussed in today’s meeting. I trust you will work with Dongguk on it.
[ST1] It is Sang's motion 14. We started to discuss it in the last .11bf meeting. I expect him to provide more considerations and plan to have more discussion.
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