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Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---
Hello All,
This attendance problem sounds like a business opportunity for the RFID tag community.  I can remember when we all had to sign a sheet of paper that got passed around the room.  Eventually we migrated to the current system that enables us to sign in electronically via a web interface.  Now it sounds like some enterprising company could come up with an RFID tag system that would record our entry into and out of a conference room, compare our ingress and egress times to determine whether we "officially" attended the meeting in question.  The only question to answer now is" "Will the benefits of such a system justify its cost?"  It would be interesting to receive input from our RFID savvy members as to the financial feasibility of such a system.
- Allen Heberling

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Eitan, Alecsander <eitana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

Hello all,

 

One more cent that was not presented.

Some of us are involved in discussions with other attendants about issues discussed or going to be discussed. Hence these discussions are related to the work we do at IEEE meetings and cannot be done only in the breaks or in the rooms where meetings occurs.

 

Alecs

 

 

From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stephens, Adrian P
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 4:05 PM


To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

 

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

Hello all,

 

I’ve held off from responding to the various opinions expressed.

But I do want to give one piece of information.   The attendance serves two purposes.

The first is to record attendance towards earning voting status.

 

The second is to record participation for various legal reasons,  and as required by the IEEE-SA.

I’m probably not qualified to explain why,  even though I think I know :0).

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian P STEPHENS

 

Tel: +44 (1793) 404825 (office)
Tel: +1 (971) 330 6025 (mobile) ç please note new number

 

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From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Vinko Erceg
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:56 PM
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

 

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

We should claim attendance once only, when picking up the badge. I think that we all had enough of signing in for every session.

Vinko..


On Nov 11, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

OK, so since everyone else is piling in, I might as well.

 

I am sympathetic to trying to catch out liars and cheats.  However, I am

not sure what the attendance threshold is intended to achieve.  It does

not ensure active participation: you can attend and spend the whole 2 hours

reading your email or whatever.  So it's arguably just presenteeism.

 

I don't see any way to address this.  So maybe we should just give up on

the attendance requirement and make "paid meeting fee" the sole requirement

for maintaining voting rights?

 

Mark

 

--

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN   English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre       Tel: +44 1223  434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS      Fax: +44 1223  434601

ROYAUME UNI                             WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

 

From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of gsmith
Sent: 11 November 2015 15:03
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

 

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

Hi Adrian,

I will be present on Friday morning but not sure for how long.  I would however  like to express an opinion in advance as I am sure there will be many speakers on the day.

I am leaning towards supporting the idea that something should be done but Dan makes a valid case that it may be impractical, unintended and/or unenforceable.  For example, an attendee signs in at the beginning of a meeting but is called away after 30 minutes for some reason so is not present for the actual count.

 

I have a cunning scheme:

The attendance, on-line, takes place at a random time, of duration say 5-10 minutes, at about the 50% point of the expected duration of the meeting.  The Chair announces the start and stop so as to coincide with the activity at that time in the meeting.  Also within that 5 – 10 minute gap the actual count is made.   Hence, a simple check of the time of recording the attendance can be made. 

 

Now, I do not know if the time that an attendee records his/her attendance is recorded at the moment but, if not, that would need to be added in order for this to work.

 

Thanks

Graham

 

 

From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fei Tong
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:08 PM
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

 

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

Hi Adrian,

 

I am not able to attend the discussion of attendance on Friday either. But, I’d like to say I am supporting the idea to stop people claiming undue credit. I would vote for having a measure to stop it. After all, who wants to be on the other side of the moral high ground.

 

However, I do have a question about the practicality aspect of this idea; this question can be related to the validity of the statistics you have kindly collected. The question is how to measure the validity of presence without any potential dispute. I can see, at least, there are two options. 1) putting tag on people and rely on location service to measurement the presence 2) putting high penalty for those who claim undue credit; for the section option, there is still practical problem how to convincingly prove the person is not present for 75% of the session time. No matter what measure will be chosen, I will support it. I am sure legalistic rule is the best way of governing.

 

That’s my two cents (or I should say “pence”).

 

Cheers,

Fei

 

 

 

From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Daniel Harkins
Sent: 11 November 2015 18:00
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit

 

--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---

 

  Hi Adrian, 

 

  Unfortunately I will not be able to attend the Friday closing plenary to take

part in the discussion of attendance (I will have my 75% already :-) ) so I’d

like to express my opinion here.

 

  The first lesson on the first day of any Economics 101 class is “people respond

to incentives”. What we have is a system that incentivizes people to claim attendance

credit when they are not, in fact, in the room. And you seem surprised that people

claim credit when credit is not due; you shouldn’t be. 

 

  When people do the calculus in these sorts of issues they weigh the downside

(compromise of their “professional ethics”) times the chance of getting caught

against the benefits of claiming credit when credit is not due.

 

  Now, you may view claiming attendance credit when not in the room as a

violation of your professional ethics and you, rightly, hold those in esteem.

Therefore one side of your equation is highly weighted. Also, your entire week,

everything you need to do this whole week, is done in 802.11 TG rooms so

the other side of the equation is not weighted at all. But you are exceptional. 

 

  Some people may treat an bogus attendance claim as a “little white lie” that

doesn’t really hurt anyone (without trying to get into a debate on whether there

is, actually, anyone with standing to claim “hurt”), and when they multiply that by

the chance of getting caught (apparently a bit over 20% of the people are doing

likewise) they don’t have that much of a weight on that side of the equation. And

when you think that there are lots of people here this week that are simultaneously

doing another job and have calls to make or fires back home to put out, the weight

on the other side of the equation becomes considerable. And the incentive is to

make the little white lie so a fire can be put out.

 

  So when the choice is between telling the boss that the issue that the boss says

requires immediate attention will just have to wait until Monday and claiming

attendance credit when it is not due, you should not be surprised how the decision

ends up being made. When the choice is between being on the conference call

to express one’s opinion on a matter that really requires that opinion being 

expressed and claiming attendance credit when it is not due, you should not be

surprised how the decision ends up being made.

 

  I seriously doubt that the situation is, as you alleged at the mid-week plenary,

that “21% of your colleagues” are “out enjoying lunch”. I think that at least 95%

of the people here have at one time made a bogus credit claim and it was not

just to go enjoy lunch. And they don’t do it all the time. There is no subclass

of slackers who don’t go to 802.11 meetings yet have at least 75% attendance.

(And the eating and tourism options here in Dallas are not so compelling to 

encourage slacking off).

 

  So my recommendation is that you just let this slide. Treat it as your local

grocer treats the minor pilferage of his grapes. The only option under your

control is the “probability of getting caught” factor that is multiplied by the

violation of professional ethics. You can name and shame people and cut the

21% number down quite a bit. To what end? Are our standards any better? No,

not really. So, just let this slide. Or create a system that has different incentives

that people will, naturally, respond to. I have no suggestion on how to design

such a system.

 

  regards,

 

  Dan.

 

  

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--
Best regards,
Allen Heberling
m: 760-696-8194
www.tensorcom.com
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