--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---
OK, so since everyone else is piling in, I might as well.
I am sympathetic to trying to catch out liars and cheats. However, I am
not sure what the attendance threshold is intended to achieve. It does
not ensure active participation: you can attend and spend the whole 2 hours
reading your email or whatever. So it's arguably just presenteeism.
I don't see any way to address this. So maybe we should just give up on
the attendance requirement and make "paid meeting fee" the sole requirement
for maintaining voting rights?
Mark
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Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel:
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From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of gsmith
Sent: 11 November 2015 15:03
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---
Hi Adrian,
I will be present on Friday morning but not sure for how long. I would however like to express an
opinion in advance as I am sure there will be many speakers on the day.
I am leaning towards supporting the idea that something should be done but Dan makes a valid case that
it may be impractical, unintended and/or unenforceable. For example, an attendee signs in at the beginning of a meeting but is called away after 30 minutes for some reason so is not present for the actual count.
I have a cunning scheme:
The attendance, on-line, takes place at a random time, of duration say 5-10 minutes, at about the 50%
point of the expected duration of the meeting. The Chair announces the start and stop so as to coincide with the activity at that time in the meeting. Also within that 5 – 10 minute gap the actual count is made. Hence, a simple check of the time of recording
the attendance can be made.
Now, I do not know if the time that an attendee records his/her attendance is recorded at the moment
but, if not, that would need to be added in order for this to work.
Thanks
Graham
From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Fei Tong
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:08 PM
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---
Hi Adrian,
I am not able to attend the discussion of attendance on Friday either. But, I’d like to
say I am supporting the idea to stop people claiming undue credit. I would vote for having a measure to stop it. After all, who wants to be on the other side of the moral high ground.
However, I do have a question about the practicality aspect of this idea; this question
can be related to the validity of the statistics you have kindly collected. The question is how to measure the validity of presence without any potential dispute. I can see, at least, there are two options. 1) putting tag on people and rely on location service
to measurement the presence 2) putting high penalty for those who claim undue credit; for the section option, there is still practical problem how to convincingly prove the person is not present for 75% of the session time. No matter what measure will be chosen,
I will support it. I am sure legalistic rule is the best way of governing.
That’s my two cents (or I should say “pence”).
Cheers,
Fei
From: *** IEEE stds-802-11 List *** [mailto:STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Daniel Harkins
Sent: 11 November 2015 18:00
To: STDS-802-11@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11] attendance credit
--- This message came from the IEEE 802.11 Working Group Reflector ---
Unfortunately I will not be able to attend the Friday closing plenary to take
part in the discussion of attendance (I will have my 75% already :-) ) so I’d
like to express my opinion here.
The first lesson on the first day of any Economics 101 class is “people respond
to incentives”. What we have is a system that incentivizes people to claim attendance
credit when they are not, in fact, in the room. And you seem surprised that people
claim credit when credit is not due; you shouldn’t be.
When people do the calculus in these sorts of issues they weigh the downside
(compromise of their “professional ethics”) times the chance of getting caught
against the benefits of claiming credit when credit is not due.
Now, you may view claiming attendance credit when not in the room as a
violation of your professional ethics and you, rightly, hold those in esteem.
Therefore one side of your equation is highly weighted. Also, your entire week,
everything you need to do this whole week, is done in 802.11 TG rooms so
the other side of the equation is not weighted at all. But you are exceptional.
Some people may treat an bogus attendance claim as a “little white lie” that
doesn’t really hurt anyone (without trying to get into a debate on whether there
is, actually, anyone with standing to claim “hurt”), and when they multiply that by
the chance of getting caught (apparently a bit over 20% of the people are doing
likewise) they don’t have that much of a weight on that side of the equation. And
when you think that there are lots of people here this week that are simultaneously
doing another job and have calls to make or fires back home to put out, the weight
on the other side of the equation becomes considerable. And the incentive is to
make the little white lie so a fire can be put out.
So when the choice is between telling the boss that the issue that the boss says
requires immediate attention will just have to wait until Monday and claiming
attendance credit when it is not due, you should not be surprised how the decision
ends up being made. When the choice is between being on the conference call
to express one’s opinion on a matter that really requires that opinion being
expressed and claiming attendance credit when it is not due, you should not be
surprised how the decision ends up being made.
I seriously doubt that the situation is, as you alleged at the mid-week plenary,
that “21% of your colleagues” are “out enjoying lunch”. I think that at least 95%
of the people here have at one time made a bogus credit claim and it was not
just to go enjoy lunch. And they don’t do it all the time. There is no subclass
of slackers who don’t go to 802.11 meetings yet have at least 75% attendance.
(And the eating and tourism options here in Dallas are not so compelling to
So my recommendation is that you just let this slide. Treat it as your local
grocer treats the minor pilferage of his grapes. The only option under your
control is the “probability of getting caught” factor that is multiplied by the
violation of professional ethics. You can name and shame people and cut the
21% number down quite a bit. To what end? Are our standards any better? No,
not really. So, just let this slide. Or create a system that has different incentives
that people will, naturally, respond to. I have no suggestion on how to design
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