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Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes



Title: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

Dear Avi Freedman and All:

 

Well, I think it could be a very fundamental question since it is regarding the possibility of frequency reuse 1.

As I know, the preambles and the pilot tones are different in each sector. Hence, since the MSS knows which preamble and pilot tone its serving BS or sector would use, it can always decode the burst although the received CINR would be a little lower than the frequency reuse factor less than 1 (for example 1/3).

 

If you are asking about the OFDM case, it may not be possible since the system has only one preamble. Hence, in OFDM case, there would be multiple FA rather than sectors.

 

I hope this may help you understand.

Let me know if I didn¡¯t understand your question correctly.

 

 Regards,

 

Jung-Won Kim, Ph. D.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Jung-Won Kim, Ph.D.

 

Senior Engineer

NTP SystemLab. 1

Telecommunication Systems Division

Telecommunication Network

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

 

Office:  +82-31-279-3356

Mobile: +82-10-9530-3356

Email: jungwon74.kim@samsung.com

---------------------------------------------------------

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-16-mobile@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-16-mobile@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Avi Freedman
Sent:
Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:04 PM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Dear Jung Won Kim

I am sorry, but I lost the physical meanning of your diagram. Do you mean that FA-ID1 (which to me always meant frequency channel 1) could be transmitted both in sector 1 (SECTOR_ID_1)  and in sector 2 (SECTOR _ID_2)?  That obviosuly will not work (especially for neighboring sectors).  How can you  say it is identical to Jin 's diagram ?  Sorry that your efforts to clarify the ID confusionmade me more confused.

 

Avi

 

-------------------------------------------------------

Avi Freedman, Ph.D

Hexagon System Engineering Ltd.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jung-Won Kim

Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:34 AM

Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Dear Jin and All:

 

Not necessarily.

 

Actually, the ID tree should be like this:

 

         neighbor BS_ID_1 ( Family -same coverage )                       

                       |                                                                                  

               -----------------                                                                       

              |                     |                                                                             

      FA_ID_1                         FA_ID_2                                                        

        |                            |                                                              

     -------                       -------                                              

    |           |                |          |

 Sector_ID_1  Sector_ID_2  Sector_ID_1  Sector_ID_2      

 

Note that we use the same sector ID¡¯s for each FA_ID. Hence, in your figure, if the FA_ID_3 and FA_ID_4 are changed to FA_ID_1 and FA_ID_2 respectively, the figures of mine and yours are conceptually the same. Again, if following the ID tree, the for-loops of ID¡¯s do not necessarily nested.

 

One more note is that FA means the allocated frequency band. So, 3 sector PUSC has only one FA in my concept.

 

Thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Jung-Won Kim

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Jung-Won Kim, Ph.D.

 

Senior Engineer

NTP SystemLab. 1

Telecommunication Systems Division

Telecommunication Network

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

 

Office:  +82-31-279-3356

Mobile: +82-10-9530-3356

Email: jungwon74.kim@samsung.com

---------------------------------------------------------

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-16-mobile@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-16-mobile@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Yongseok(jay) Jin
Sent:
Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:23 AM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Dear all and Jung-Won

 

Let me introduce my basic concept again

 

look the conceptual tree .

 

my concern is how open MSS can scan all advertised ID. If MSS measure channel quality, MSS have to scan all advertised FA_ID.

  

 

 

         neighbor BS_ID_1 ( Family -same coverage )                        BS_ID_2  

                       |                                                                                   |

               ----------                                                                        sector_ID

              |                |                                                                           |     

      sector_ID_1    sector_ID_2                                                         --------

        |                            |                                                               |            |

     -------                  -------                                                  FA_ID_1     FA_ID_2

    |           |                 |          |

 FA_ID_1  FA_ID_2     FA_ID_3   FA_ID_4

 

 

 

I think that serving BS just advertise above one tree ( red color ) , no need For loop.   

 

I will upload the contribution that supports this mechanism.( add one or two fields in current  related HO message. )   

 

 

 

                                     Table 92d - MOB-NBR-ADV Message Format
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| Syntax                                                   | Size       |              Notes                                          |
|                                                               | (bits)     |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| MOB-NBR-ADV_Message_Format( ) {   |              |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| Management Message Type = 49           | 8          |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| Operator ID                                             | 24         |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| N_NEIGHBORS                                        | 8          |                                                                 |         
+------------------------------------+--------+--------------------------------------
| For ( j=-;j<N_NEIGHBORS;j++ ) {             |              |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
|        Neighbor BS-ID                              | 48         |                                                                  |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
|        DL Physical Frequency                  |   32        |   Delete field                                              |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
|        sector_ID                                        |    8        | one of Sector_IDs that  BS_ID has            |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+

|        FA_ID                                              |    8         | it can use instead of Physical Frequency|
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| Configuration Change Count                  | 8           |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| TLV Encoded Neighbor information        |Varialbe|                                                                  |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| }                                                            |              |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+
| }                                                             |             |                                                                 |
+------------------------------------+--------+-------------------------------------+

 

Best regard

 

Yong seok (jay) jin

 

LG electronics

 

 


From: owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG [mailto:owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG]
Sent:
Tuesday, June 15, 2004 8:04 AM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

Oops, my mistake.

 

Well, I think it should be read as the following:

 

for (i=0;i< N_FA_ID; i++){

FA_ID

   for (j = 0; j < N_sectors; j ++){

    Preamble_Index

   }

}

 

Well, I assume the different FA should have the same structure of the current FA.

Hence, if the current FA has 3 sectors, the other FA should have 3 sectors, too.

 

Thank you for your feedback.

 

Best regards,

 

Jung-Won Kim

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Jung-Won Kim, Ph.D.

 

Senior Engineer

NTP SystemLab. 1

Telecommunication Systems Division

Telecommunication Network

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

 

Office:  +82-31-279-3356

Mobile: +82-10-9530-3356

Email: jungwon74.kim@samsung.com

---------------------------------------------------------

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Raja Banerjea [mailto:RBanerjea@proxim.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:36 AM
To: 'Jung-Won Kim'; STDS-802-16-MOBILE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Hi Jung-Won,

    Going through your uploaded contribution "Inter-FA-HO-Inter-PHY-HO.doc" I had a few questions/comments ?

 

1, If the number of frequecies did not equal the number of sectors I am not sure how an MSS would understand which FA-ID it should use for which Preamble Index. If feel therefore we should modify the part of MOB-NBR-ADV to be

  for (i=0i<N_sectors;i++) {

    Preamble Index

    FA_ID

   }

 

2. The length of the message implicitly defines the N_NEIGHBORS therefore we don't N_NEIGHBORS field in the MOB-NBR-ADV message.

 

The rest of the messages was acceptable.

Is there a document defining what BS ID, sector ID, FA-ID and Preamble index is. I am currently using my understanding during the telecon and my understanding could be different from others....

 

Regards,

-Raja

Raja Banerjea
Senior Systems Engineer
935 Stewart Drive
Sunnyvale, CA 94085
408-731-2870 (P)
408-720-9380 (F)
rbanerjea@proxim.com

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jung-Won Kim [mailto:jungwon74.kim@SAMSUNG.COM]
Sent:
Monday, June 14, 2004 6:37 AM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

Dear Jay, Phil, and All:

 

Again, sorry about the late reply. Just blame so many things to do and the weekend.

Well, it¡¯s kind of hard to keep following up among the flood of emails these days.

 

Anyhow, read carefully my inlined answers which are purple (well, some more emails may run out all the colors, haha.)

 

Thanks again, and see you in tomorrow¡¯s CC.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Jung-Won Kim, Ph.D.

 

Senior Engineer

NTP SystemLab. 1

Telecommunication Systems Division

Telecommunication Network

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

 

Office:  +82-31-279-3356

Mobile: +82-10-9530-3356

Email: jungwon74.kim@samsung.com

---------------------------------------------------------

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG [mailto:owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of jay_
Áø¿ë¼®
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:19 PM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Dear Phil and all..

 

I saw Phil's comments previous e-mail answer.

 

see my comments in-line with green color

 

Thanks

 

jay jin

 

 


From: owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG [mailto:owner-stds-802-16-mobile@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG]
Sent:
Monday, June 14, 2004 5:47 PM
To: STDS-802-16-MOBILE@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

See my comments in-line.

 

Thanks,

Phil

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:40 AM

Subject: Re: [STDS-802-16-MOBILE] [Handoff] 6/10 telecon meeting minutes

 

Dear Jong-won Kim  and all

 

 I received the result conference call result in this morning ..

 

 see  my comments  in-line

Please check it out and let me know your opinion.

 thanks.

Regards,

jay jin 

 

 

 Scenario: Inter-sector HO where BS ID of serving and target BS is assumed to be the same:
(Diff. freq, same FFT size, same IP subnet/prefix, no AAS)
This is one of the basic scenarios. From a scrub of pending contributions, the following contribution (available in temporary upload directory) seems applicable:

* method to reduce a munber of scanning.pdf

We did not discuss this contribution. Action item for the group is to review this draft prior to the next telecon.  

Above contribution is the case that BSs may be enough close to have same coverage and share MAC resource among them. 

If serving BS advertise all BSs in above case, It could be wasted. Because BSs in the same coverage transmit similar power. MSS need not to scan all BSs in the same coverage. 

So  in my opinion, the neighbor BS_ID can be represent all BSs  that are belong to a same coverage. .  

No. The channel information broadcast in NBR-ADV and contained in the DCD for differing Neighbor BS (logical or physical) are also used by MSS during power-up/initial network entry so that they do not have to scan all available channels.  An MSS can synchronize with a given BS, listen for the periodic NBR-ADV (on average will have to wait 500ms), and get information on all Neighbor BS.  This is can be a very handy feature.  Your example only deals with HO use of the data. 

 

jay)    I also think serving BS advertise information of Neighbor BSs in NBR-ADV message.  but  in my opinion, when neighbor BSs have same feature ( e.g.  if neighbor BSs transmit same power ( same coverage) ), MSS doesn't need to measure channel quality all neighbor BSs.  so I think that advertisement of one of neighbor BSs can be enough. ( e.g. during  the scanning period, MSS measures channel quality of advertised neighbor BS's. since neighbor BSs in the same coverage give the similar quality, serving BS advertise just one of neighbor BSs through the NBR-ADV message )

JW KIM) I also think the Sector ID, FA ID, and PHY MODE ID should be listed in the MOB-NBR-ADV, since they could be all targets of HO. Currently, within the group, there is confusion about the BS ID. Some think BS ID is the hardware MAC address (well, 48 bits. What a coincidence!!) And others think it¡¯s only a logical ID. So, it can be divided and some can have different ID and so on. We have to clarify this first. Otherwise, this tedious discussion may never end.

Basically, I think BS ID is Hardware MAC Address. Hence I made all sector ID and FA ID, PHY mode ID separately.

I just uploaded a new contribution. Check it out.

 

 Scenario: Inter-sector HO where it does not matter if serving and target BS ID are same or different:
(Diff. freq, same FFT size, same IP subnet/prefix, no AAS)

There are several contributions (including ones promised) that potentially fall into this category. They are listed below with updates based on the telecon:

* 04/87r1, 04/105_enhanced HO reentry, Phil's planned contribution on optimizing invited ranging, skipping SBC-REQ/RSP, skip PKM REQ-RSP, skip REG REQ/RSP, skip IP addrress acquisition

Group agreed that these 3 contributions should be harmonized to address the following: Definitions of levels of backbone information sharing/communication, grouping of functions during network (re)entry and how levels map to such groupings, under what conditions can certain MSS - BS network entry functions be skipped or optimized and how, how will an MSS 'discover' the level of backbone information sharing supported by a serving and target BS and format and content of information that is shared at each level. Transport of such information between a serving and target BS will not be discussed for now. It may also be possible to combine this with the previous contribution - method to reduce a munber of scanning.pdf  

* 105_Inter-sector HO, 04/58
Action Item: Jung-won to attempt to harmonize these 2 contributions prior to next telecon 

 Between the contribution of 105_Inter-sector HO and my contribution of "method to reduce a number of scanning" ,  there is a small difference in the advertisement of Neighbour  BS ID.

In contribution of 105..., they suggest that serving BS advertise the preamble intex of every neighbor BS,

but in my contribution, under the assumption that neighbor BSs share MAC resource with the same coverage, they have the same Basestation ID so that they may be classified by Sector_ID or FA_ID, etc.  Therefore, a neighbor BS_ID can represent all BSs that are belong to a neighbor. 

I think we need discuss small difference.