Re: [802.3_100GNGOPTX] Minutes Uploaded - Forward Direction
Steve,
You have fully captured the difficult problem we face in trying to do
due diligence on competing proposals.
If we use completely sanitized solution A and solution B costs which
cannot be referenced to more generally available data, then we are back
to "liar's poker" or more generously to "he said, she said". In that
case, there is no way to challenge the cost assertions of proponents of
solution A or solution B.
If on the other hand we use more generally available data, so that there
is objectivity in the cost comparisons, not just unsubstantiated claims,
then this can always be traced to an actual dollar amount even if
through a tortuous path.
So the concern I raised about not being able to demonstrate 5 Criteria,
as further commented on by Brad, is genuine.
The solution we employed in 802.3ba is to use cost numbers averaged over
many suppliers and many variants. In practice there is a very wide
variability in the market around that baseline, and the specific average
number may not even exist. The information is equally available to
everyone so it does not confer an advantage on any party in the market.
Despite all this, it is obviously not as crisp as not using any
generally available relative cost data.
We are going to have to agree to some more useful guidelines than have
been given so far if we don't want to rely on ad hoc interpretations by
the chairs of every email or presentation.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: Trowbridge, Stephen J (Steve)
[mailto:steve.trowbridge@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:06 PM
To: STDS-802-3-100GNGOPTX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_100GNGOPTX] Minutes Uploaded - Forward Direction
Hi Chris,
I think that a lot of folks on the list are having trouble
distinguishing the difference in the meaning of "price" and "cost", but
also about the meaning of the word "relative".
If people start describing costs relative to something they can buy
today, and everybody knows the price of what they can buy today, people
assume that if the same margins were to apply, they can infer a relative
price. This gets dangerous in that you are essentially deciding "how big
is a banana", and then using bananas as currency.
The idea of "relative" to my understanding is that you need to restrict
yourself to "A" vs. "B" comparisons, and not put the universe on a
common scale which amounts to defining a currency which basically
translates to price. So if you have two ways to solve a problem, you can
compare the relative costs of those two solutions. If you are trying to
test if a "replacement" PMD is justified, you would want to analyze the
long term cost of what is inside of the module to see if that looks to
cost enough less, long term, to be worth building.
What I see people trying to do is to establish this currency where folks
are asked to compare their own proposal to some baseline (e.g., SR10)
assuming that if everyone uses the same baseline, you can do arithmetic
and effectively compare the relative costs of solution A vs solution B,
not by actually comparing them directly against each other, but by using
some other established currency. I am not sure this is a really
productive exercise either, since I think it would just create a game of
"liar's poker" with every contributor trying to construct a story that
puts their solution at the lowest "cost" based on this common currency.
This assumption is wrong unless you can guarantee that everyone who does
this is equally thorough, equally honest, equally optimistic (or
pessimistic). The common scale won't help you: you really need to look
at solutions directly against each other.
Regards,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Cole [mailto:chris.cole@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:35 PM
To: STDS-802-3-100GNGOPTX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_100GNGOPTX] Minutes Uploaded - Forward Direction
John
Can you explain the difference between the discussion of relative module
costs in NG 100G OE SG, and the discussion of relative module costs in
HSSG and 802.3ba including of specific form factors?
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: John D'Ambrosia [mailto:jdambrosia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:14 PM
To: STDS-802-3-100GNGOPTX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_100GNGOPTX] Minutes Uploaded - Forward Direction
Dan,
Let me clear - do not include me on any discussions regarding price.
That is an inappropriate discussion and I do not want to be involved!
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dove [mailto:ddove@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:11 PM
To: STDS-802-3-100GNGOPTX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_100GNGOPTX] Minutes Uploaded - Forward Direction
Seriously, folks;
I am going to officially ask that if you wish to talk about products and
their relative prices, please do it on a different discussion forum.
Maybe an email thread among friends?
We are here to talk about IEEE standards, PMDs, and their relative
costs.
Dan Dove
Chair, Next Generation 100G Ethernet Study Group