Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] updated technical decisions on web site
Jorge,
I feel obligated to comment on your last email.
As an individual who is in the process of starting his third major project, I would like to share my experience with you. And other chairs who have mentored me have shared this same advice with me - when all else fails, fall back on the process. Simply stated - the process works!
It is not the process that slows things down - it is the lack of consensus. As a matter of fact, consensus can speed things up quite significantly - go look at 802.3bg, which went from TF to published standard in less than a year! Why did that happen? Because there was consensus.
I think there is an issue with the perspective that the IEEE process is a 2-3 day marathon to cram as many things in as possible every 2months. To me this implies that there is nothing happening in between meetings. Frankly, this is not an effective approach by any individual to the process. While it is true that the decisions get officially decided at the meetings - the reality is that the true challenge is getting to the point of consensus to make the decision. In my experience, meetings are not typically where there is a sudden profound moment of realization and a decision gets made. It is in between the meetings where offline consensus building happens. The former task force members of the IEEE 802.3ba Task Force can attest to this - I ended every meeting by saying that people need to realize that work on the standard doesn't end when they left the room - it begins!
As an outside observer of the EPOC project, I would note that there were a large number of presentations at the meeting last week. It has been my observation that when this happens, that in all likelihood, the number of presentations could have been reduced by off-line consensus building. Consensus will always enhance the rate of progress.
Two cents from someone who I would say at this point has a pretty good track record.
John
From: Hugh Barrass (hbarrass) [mailto:hbarrass@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 10:09 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] updated technical decisions on web site
Jorge,
The "IEEE spec process" is not causing delays. The Task Force has not reached the part of the process that is (frustratingly) slow - ballot cycles. The problem with delays in the task force can be summed up with one word - people.
There is no reason why the meeting should be a "2-3 day marathon to cram as many things as possible." If the people in the task force wished to make progress, the meeting would consist of 2 or 3 presentations that capture the consensus of the group and some motions to adopt these baselines. It should be expected that the time between task force meetings should be spent constructively by task force members discussing, negotiating and (crucially) agreeing on issues. Anyone who hopes to persuade technical opponents purely by bringing a long presentation to the task force is a fool. At this stage in the process, every presentation that is worth presenting should have a list of supporters that capture the bulk of the task force demographics.
Unfortunately, there is no chain of command in an IEEE process. There is nothing that can be done to force the people involved to reach the agreements necessary. Until and unless the people start working towards the same goals, the process will seem (and be) frustratingly long and pointless. Once the people (and their attitudes) are aligned then the process will move as rapidly as feasible - given the nature of a recognized international standard.
Hugh.
From: Salinger, Jorge [mailto:Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 5:11 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] updated technical decisions on web site
Yes, that's very true.
I guess I am just referring to getting the requirements for building the equipment, which for the IEEE standard (in this case at least for comparison) would end up taking about twice as long. I also know that the equipment is built in parallel with the development of the IEEE standard, but that happens with DOCSIS as well (for example, D3.1 SOC development is already in progress).
To that end, I believe that there are things that could be done, at least from my perspective, to streamline the IEEE process. For example, I see the IEEE process as a 2-3 day marathon to cram as many things as possible every 2 months, while I see the DOCSIS process as a continuous stream of work and decisions. Wouldn't it be possible to take the best of both worlds, and get an international standard but with a smoother and faster organizational approach?
Jorge
From: <Jones>, Douglas Jones <Douglas_Jones3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Douglas_Jones3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:35 AM
To: Comcast User <jorge_salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:jorge_salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>, EPoC Task Force <STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: RE: updated technical decisions on web site
IEEE does not write specifications, rather, it creates international standards.
CableLabs creates specifications for the North American cable industry. For a CableLabs specification to become an internatinoal standard, it would have to go through both the ANSI process (likely SCTE) and then an international standards process. These would easily tack on a few years. With that perspective, the IEEE process looks quick.
dj
From: Salinger, Jorge [mailto:Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 11:01 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] updated technical decisions on web site
Dear EPoC TF colleagues,
I know I was not able to attend the meeting last week to comment on the new timeline, so I recognize that in some way this a Monday quarterbacking comment. But, I can't help but express my frustration with the IEEE Spec process. According to this new schedule the standard will now take almost 3 years! If you just counted the time from the TF to the Sponsor Ballot, as I heard from many that we should count, this is still just shy of 2 years. I believe that things won't happen any faster than the schedule shows, and further believe that they will quite possibly take longer.
By comparison, the DOCSIS 3.1 spec, which I believe to be quite more complex, will take about 1 year from start to finish. In fact, as things look we'll likely have Certified products before the EPoC standard is completed.
I think I have heard all the reasons why the IEEE standards take as long as they do (e.g., open process, better specs, its people and not companies that contribute and vote, etc., etc.). But, this process just does not keep with the pace of our times. There is got to be something that can be fundamentally changed in the IEEE standard process to make it more streamlined.
I would really like to look into what can be done, discuss options, and see if we can find a way to improve on the timeline. And I have some thoughts about this already, some of which It hope we could be applied already, now, for EPoC.
So, if I am not the only one wanting to get the process to improve its velocity, then I would be the first to volunteer to try to do so.
Regards,
Jorge
From: Mark Laubach [mailto:laubach@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:21 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [STDS-802-3-EPOC] updated technical decisions on web site
Dear IEEE P802.3bn EPoC PHY Task Force participants,
Based on the technical motions approved at this meeting (28 motions), the list of technical decisions on our website has been updated to include each of these motions. Please see:
http://www.ieee802.org/3/bn/public/decisions/decisions.html
In addition, the Task Force timeline was updated as of today. Please see:
http://www.ieee802.org/3/bn/public/tf_timeline_updated_130321.pdf
Yours truly,
Mark Laubach, Chair,
IEEE P802.3bn Task Force
Broadband Communications Group
Broadcom Corporation
1351 Redwood Way
Petaluma, CA, 94954
[cid:image001.jpg@01CE2B9D.954AA500]
Tel: +1.707.792.9093
Cell: +1.650.996.2219
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