RE: PSE technology & cost note
Many thanks Bruce,
I am looking for the following:
In concept A: we have digital or analog chip and external 80V,1A Mosfet.
(The external mosfet D2PACK costs 32 cents at large quantities)
In concept B: we have 80V,1A, Low RDson integrated into digital or analog
chip.
What concept will have the lowest cost? highest reliability ?
Thanks
Yair.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Inn, Bruce [SMTP:Bruce.Inn@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: ה, מרץ 22, 2001 9:11 PM
> To: 'stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx'
> Subject: FW: PSE technology & cost note
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Inn, Bruce
> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 10:38 AM
> > To: 'Yair Darshan'
> > Subject: RE: PSE technology & cost note
> >
> > Some comments on fab cost stimulated by Yair's email about HV & LV and
> die
> > costs.
> >
> > Basically, the 802.3af situation potentially calls for 3, not 2,
> > process flavors: 80v (2-micron process core), 10-15v (1-2-micron,
> > roughly), and 3-5v (0.5-micron).
> >
> > The 80v technology is for the PSE switch (if it goes on-chip). The
> > 10-15v technology is for the analog and digital control. The 3-5v
> > technology would be needed if there are extensive amounts of digital
> > logic, such as a state machine that handles both detection and
> > classification.
> >
> > As far as cost of processes goes, it's like this. It's not too hard
> > mixing 15v and 80v; this already has been done by more than one company.
> >
> > It's more of a stretch to have submicron and 80v on the same
> > substrate. These have really different fab requirements: for example,
> you
> > need 5x steppers for 0.5-micron but only 1x steppers for the 80v. Too,
> > you need barrier metals for 0.5-micron, but not for 10-15v & 80v.
> >
> > How this relates to 802.3af is that up until we contemplated
> > classification, we probably didn't absolutely need submicron technology.
> > With increasing amounts of sequential logic, you probably do.
> >
> > In any case, if the marketplace needs extensive digital, there are
> > clever, cost-effective ways. Remember that analog people are used to
> > developing processes and chips with contrasting mixtures of technology.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bruce
> >
> > [Yair Darshan]
> >
> > 1. Setting PD inrush current limit to be lower than PSE inrush
> > current limit will reduce PSE switch size - Correct
> > 2. Setting PD inrush current limit to be lower than PSE inrush
> > current limit will increase PD isolating switch size.
> > 3. Reducing PSE switch size allows integrating the mosfet in the
> > chip - allow lower cost solution. - Not accurate.
> > - Chip vendors says that it will cost more due to
> > the mixed technologies used (HV & LV)
> > - Chip vendors says that to support 350mA/80V with
> > low dissipation, large die size required, chip package increased,
> overall
> > cost increase compared to
> > small LV chip with external Mosfet.
> > 4. The functions needed to get inrush current limit, are already
> > exist in the PSE, duplicate it in the PD, costs more.
> > 5. There are more.. but I think the above are the major ones.
> >
> >
> > The problem you are raising is basically a function of the package
> > size, and, I am trying to show that the package size is not a problem if
> > the
> > intention is to reduce cost by integrating the mosfet in the chip , than
> > we
> > didn't achieve this goal due to the fact that we increased PD cost.
> >
> > > The second issue is that even with the overcurrent for a limited time,
> > the
> > > PD
> > > still needs a big FET.
> > [Yair Darshan]
> >
> > Why the PD still need a big fet? please explain?
> > The isolating switch can be very small fet since it can be operated
> > as a fast switch (it is the same mosfet size that you will need in the
> PSE
> > if you use your concept...)
> > The other mosfet is the power supply mosfet which we are not
> > discussing it since it will be needed for any concept.
> > If you want to integrate the isolating function with inrush current
> > in the PD, than you will need to increase the mosfet size in the
> PD......
> >
> >
> > > The only way to use a smaller FET is by reducing the
> > > current.
> > >
> > > Dieter
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Subject: RE: PSE vs. PD power dissipation again
> > > > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:12:03 -0500
> > > > From: "Lynch, Brian" <brian_lynch@xxxxxx>
> > > > To: "'Yair Darshan'" <YairD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > > > "'Dave Dwelley'"
> > > > <ddwelley@xxxxxxxxxx>,
> > > > stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Yair, Dave, all,
> > > >
> > > > I'll throw some more fuel to the fire below...
> > > >
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Yair Darshan [mailto:YairD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 5:06 AM
> > > > >To: 'Dave Dwelley'; stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> > > > >Subject: RE: PSE vs. PD power dissipation again
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Dave,
> > > > >See my comments bellow.
> > > > >
> > > > >Yair.
> > > > >
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Dave Dwelley [SMTP:ddwelley@xxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > >> Sent: ד מרץ 21 2001 4:43
> > > > >> To: stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> > > > >> Subject: PSE vs. PD power dissipation again
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Group -
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In lieu of a dedicated power ad-hoc reflector, I'm posting
> > > > >this to the
> > > > >> general list. Is there a power reflector in the works?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm assuming that we'd eventually like to integrate the
> > > > >power switches
> > > > >> into
> > > > >> a PSE chip, and that PSE designers will tend to want to
> > > > >service multiple
> > > > >> channels with a single chip: 4, 8, or more.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] (1) Yes we would like it, if it will
> > > > >not increase
> > > > >system cost and complexity (PSE and PD).
> > > > >> Also, I assume that we'd like
> > > > >> to be able to power up many PDs simultaneously (when the
> > > > >wiring closet
> > > > >> power comes back on after a California shutdown) - this
> > > > >isn't critical,
> > > > >> but
> > > > >> it's desirable.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] (2) I don't think it is an issue at
> > > > >all, since after
> > > > >break down of long time, it is not important if a PD will get
> service
> > > > > right now or within few seconds.
> > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] If it is OK for a PD to get service "within a few
> > seconds"
> > > > then
> > > > why do we concentrate so much on detection/classification time? If,
> by
> > > > adding
> > > > a classification step to discovery, we add 200ms, is that a problem?
> > How
> > > > much time
> > > > will it take for the 100th port to come alive in a large system?
> > > >
> > > > >> To do this, we need a scheme that keeps the power
> > > > >dissipation out of the
> > > > >> PSE end.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] Agree. Remember that we have two cases of
> > power
> > > > >dissipation. Case 1: during startup. Case 2: During normal
> operation.
> > > > > In Case 1: We indeed can reduce the power loss in PSE switch
> > by
> > > > >setting the PD current limit lower than the PSE, we are not "kill"
> > the
> > > > >problem completely, we just moving it to the PD with some ability
> of
> > > > >reducing it by increasing PD cost.
> > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] I agree that in startup the power has to be lost in
> > either
> > > > the PSE or the PD. That is physics. By putting the inrush current
> > limit
> > > > on the PD side, and setting the current limit to a value below the
> > > current
> > > > limit in the PSE, we get a number of advantages.
> > > > - The PSE switch losses are always low. Turn ON losses
> > > > can be limited to 300mw for the initial "spike" and continuous
> > > > operation losses are in the 100mw region. (assuming a 1 ohm MOSFET).
> > > > In a practical case, the RdsON will be much less. A SOT-223 FET or
> > SO-8
> > > with
> > > >
> > > > RdsON in the .02 to .05 range will dissipate much less.
> > > > - In a fault condition (as a shorted wire) the reaction time
> > may
> > > be
> > > > virtually instantaneous, keeping PSE switch losses low.
> > > > - The PD designer has the freedom to choose the size and
> rate
> > of
> > > > charge of
> > > > his PD's bulk capacitor, and thus the size of the MOSFET used. A low
> > > cost PD
> > > > can use a small MOSFET, and a higher end device may use a larger.
> The
> > > point
> > > > is that
> > > > PD can be sized to the job, and not be limited by avoidable
> > constraints.
> > > >
> > > > If the PSE limits the inrush current:
> > > > - The PSE muse always be sized for the worst case, which is
> at
> > > least
> > > >
> > > > 350ma for the maximum startup time allowed. So for large systems and
> > > small,
> > > > the PSE
> > > > would need to have and expensive D2PAK MOSFET on every port.
> > > > - Under a shorted wire condition, the switch must stay on
> for
> > > and
> > > > extended
> > > > period of time. (A time greater than the longest startup time). If
> the
> > > > current limit is
> > > > set at 500ma, then the losses could be as high as 57*.5=28.5 watts
> for
> > > up to
> > > > 500ms.
> > > > - The size of the PD bulk capacitor must be limited, and the
> > > time to
> > > > turn-on
> > > > must be limited in the spec, constraining future design freedom.
> > > > - To avoid startup issues, additional circuitry is needed in
> > the
> > > PD
> > > > to keep
> > > > the switch ON while the PSE voltage drops to zero and begins
> charging
> > > the
> > > > bulk capacitor.
> > > > The added circuitry must have energy storage in it sufficient to
> keep
> > > the PD
> > > > switch alive for the
> > > > time it takes to charge the capacitor....more cost and potential for
> > > failure
> > > > to start up.
> > > >
> > > > > Case 2: During normal operation we need to support
> > > > >350mA avg, with
> > > > >57V output. It means a 80-100V, 0.6-1A MOSFET which its die
> > > > >size is function
> > > > >of the Rdson. At 350mA average current the power loss on the
> > > > >FET will be
> > > > >0.350^2xRdson.
> > > > [Brian Lynch] 100mw/port or less.
> > > >
> > > > > In low cost plastic package you can dissipate between
> > > > >1-1.5W thus to
> > > > >meet this number you will need low Rdson MOSFET
> > > > > which will have large die size.
> > > > > We didn't mention yet what we will need with current
> > > > >peaks above the
> > > > >average which is normal situation at some loads.
> > > > [Brian Lynch] The peak current requirements, no matter what they
> are,
> > > will
> > > > only the change the numbers, not their relative positioning.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To summarize this: I am not sure that integrating the
> > > > >Mosfets in the
> > > > >chip will get us important advantages.
> > > > > Info received from chip vendors shows that:
> > > > > a- They have the technology to implement MOSFET (HV
> technology
> > )
> > > > >with the chip (Low voltage technology)
> > > > > b- Integrating the MOSFET into the chip will not save
> > footprint
> > > > >since the die size is large which will increase the package size.
> > > > > c- The cost of integrated chip+Mosfet is greater than
> > > > >the cost of
> > > > >low power low voltage small package chip with external MOSFET.
> > > > >
> > > > > In light of the above what is the incentive to
> > > > >integrate the Mosfets
> > > > >into the chip?
> > > > >
> > > > >> Rick and Dieter have both shown that if the PD limits inrush
> > > > >> current to some value lower than the PSE current limit (eg.,
> > > > >350mA for the
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PD, 500mA for the PSE), dissipation in the PSE is near zero.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] Dissipation on PSE switch is very low and
> > > > >dissipation on PD switch is very high.
> > > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] The loss in the PD switch FET can be limited to any
> > value,
> > > > depending on the startup time allowed. It can be as high as 10watts
> > for
> > > > 100ms
> > > > startup (into a 100uf capacitor charging to 57 volts) or as low as
> > 200mw
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > longer period of time, then less than 100mw continuous. It is up to
> > the
> > > PD
> > > > designer to
> > > > decide the trade offs he is willing to make.
> > > >
> > > > >> This one of
> > > > >> several options allowed by the draft standard as it reads
> > > > >now - others
> > > > >> share the dissipation between the two ends (the Avaya
> > > > >resistor divider/FET
> > > > >>
> > > > >> scheme), or put all the dissipation in the PSE (the
> > > > >UVLO/latch-on scheme
> > > > >> that Micrel showed at the meeting).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If we allow any PD to push any dissipation back into the
> > > > >PSE, we force the
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PSE to be able to handle the worst case - all channels powering
> > > > >> simultaneously, with all the power in the PSE.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] All channels are not required to startup
> > > > >simultaneously. After detection we can turn on each channel
> > > > > at atime since we have control on it according to
> management
> > > > >requirements.
> > > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] Will mid-span have the same intelligence for startup?
> > > >
> > > > >> To do this, the PSE needs
> > > > >> some accommodation: heat sinks,
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] No heat sink required. With D2PACK, we
> > > > >can support
> > > > >easily 500mA peak for 100mSec.
> > > > > Now, if we reduce the time from
> > > > >100mSec to
> > > > >40-50mS it is even better.
> > > > [Brian Lynch] Perhaps better for dissipation in the PSE switch, but
> > > worse
> > > > for a PD designer, since now EVERY PD must start in a certain time.
> > Low
> > > cost
> > > > and
> > > > high end.
> > > >
> > > > >> external FETs,
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] Agreed.
> > > > >> sequential power up algorithms (which lengthen average
> > > > >detect time), or
> > > > >> low current limits at startup. None of these are desirable.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] - Sequential power up algorithm is
> > > > >easy to get with
> > > > >no cost. We will need some intelligence in any case.
> > > > > this requirement is part of it. It will help reducing
> > > > >power supply
> > > > >size and many other good advantages.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] - It will not affect detection time,
> > > > >it will affect
> > > > >the time that the PD is turning on, However we agreed that it is
> not
> > an
> > > > >issue, since boot up time can be long ( Laptop, PC etc...)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> There is the issue of line capacitance, which will put the
> > > > >PSE into its
> > > > >> 500mA limit briefly (<74us) - but this short time duration won't
> > > > >> significantly heat the PSE. We could also see a short on the
> > > > >wire - in
> > > > >> this
> > > > >> case, the PSE could shut off quickly (<1ms) or incorporate
> > > > >foldback to
> > > > >> limit dissipation, like Micrel showed.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] As stated before, if we can support
> > > > >500mS for TBD
> > > > >ms, the above is not an issue.
> > > > >
> > > > >> I propose that we mandate that the PD limit the inrush
> > > > >current, say to
> > > > >> 350mA +/-50mA, and mandate that the PSE limit at say 500mA
> > > > >+/-50mA. By
> > > > >> forcing the PD to do this, we allow a multi-channel PSE chip
> > > > >with FETs on
> > > > >> board. Otherwise we can't do it.
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] I do not agree to this conclusion from
> > > > >the reasons
> > > > >mentioned above, and from the reasons described
> > > > > in my presentation regarding "Where
> to
> > > > >locate the inrush current limit".
> > > > > If you do not agree to my
> > > > >conclusions and
> > > > >data presented there, lets discuss it and crack it,
> > > > > until we will have the best
> > > > >understanding of
> > > > >what is the optimum solution for us.
> > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] I the 350+/-50ma and 500ma +/-50ma are reasonable
> > numbers.
> > > > I think putting the inrush control in the PD side provides a more
> > robust
> > > > solution that allows more design freedom and less opportunity for
> > > > mis-behavior.
> > > > It is relatively easy to specify, and allows designers to size their
> > PDs
> > > > according
> > > > to their own needs, without impacting system behavior.
> > > >
> > > > Yair, I think the approach you describe can be made to work in a
> > limited
> > > > scope,
> > > > but with so many vendors, so many designers, and so many unknown
> > future
> > > > designs,
> > > > I think it is prone to difficulty, not only in specifying, but in
> > > > implimentation.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In my opinion, setting the PSE to 500mA for TBD msec. and
> not
> > > > >forcing inrush current limiter in the PD is the desirable solution
> > > > > in terms of performance/cost ratio.
> > > > > It does not mean that the PD will not have current
> > > > >protection. It is
> > > > >part of the PD power supply after the big cap.
> > > > > We are discussing only on the inrush current limiter
> > > > >that should be
> > > > >located before the PD big cap.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> This does make a bare-bones PD more complicated. In the
> > > > >short run, it
> > > > >> probably requires a low-cost op amp and a sense resistor to
> > > > >implement - or
> > > > >>
> > > > >> a 150 ohm/~1W series resistor and a FET to short it out when
> > > > >the switcher
> > > > >> input cap voltage approaches the line voltage
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] All the above functions and more you
> > > > >have already in
> > > > >the PSE. Why duplicate it also in PD?
> > > >
> > > > [Brian Lynch] THere has to be some control for the switch in the PD.
> > > Whether
> > > > it is
> > > > ON/OFF or a current limit circuit, there has to be something. A
> > resistor
> > > and
> > > > an NPN
> > > > would do it, too.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Going forward, the PD
> > > > >> function (with power device, current limit, UVLO, the works) can
> be
> > > > >> integrated - and since PDs generally don't need multiple
> > > > >channels, the
> > > > >> power in the single switch is tolerable (as Dieter showed at
> > > > >the meeting).
> > > > >>
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] The power in the switch is tolerable
> > > > >also if it is
> > > > >on PSE when external FET is used.
> > > > >> The "30 watt" PD would conceivably need a dual - we'll use a
> bigger
> > > > >> package
> > > > >> or some other trick to deal with the heat in that case.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> How much is it worth to integrate a multi-channel PSE chip?
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] From the data that I have today: It is
> > > > >not worth the
> > > > >effort. To many problems compared to trivial solution.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Yair Darshan] To summarize the above, I think that we need
> > to
> > > > >answer the following questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Do we have a space problem that integration the MOSFET in
> > the
> > > > >chip can help us?
> > > > > 2. Do we have power loss problem when the fet is not
> > integrated?
> > > > > 3. Do we have power loss problem when the fet is integrated?
> > > > > 4. How chip cost affected by integrating the Mosfet
> > > > >compared to chip
> > > > >+ discrete Mosfet?
> > > > > 5. Cost of multi channel chip with integrated Mosfets
> > > > >compared to
> > > > >multi channel chip with external Mosfets
> > > > > 6. Foot print of multi channel chip with integrated Mosfets
> > > > >compared to multi channel chip with external Mosfets
> > > > > 7. Can we support many applications with low cost
> > > > >solution when the
> > > > >PD contains the inrush current limit function?
> > > > > 7.1. What it does to PD cost
> > > > > 7.2. What it does to System cost
> > > > > 7.3. How it complicate PD design
> > > > > 7.4. How it affect PSE-PD inter-operate
> > > > >
> > > > > Yair Darshan/ PowerDsine
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dave Dwelley
> > > > >> Linear Technology
> > > > >>
> > > > > << File: Card for Dieter Knollman >>