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FW: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation



Title: Message
What we really need for these case is a Group Source MAC Address, which of course would not be learnt by bridges. However I think that opportunity was wrecked years ago - or was it?
 
Mick
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Mick Seaman
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:52 PM
To: 'CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)'; 'Johnston, Dj'
Cc: 'LinkSec'
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

 
But I think it is a funny sort of shared medium at present. I think each 'peg' /AP just about has to have a MAC address dedicated to this shared media/roving support entity. That at least is just one per AP. The only way to do less is to rely heavily on the 'only this segment' property and reuse the source MAC address across multiple APs. Since this source address is never ever used as a DA - there is no reason to reach it from the wire side we might get away with that. Making it the MAC address of an entity reachable from the wire side is just getting ourselves into further danger - next thing you know we'd find people bridging advertisments and the whole reachability picture would come unglued.
 
Mick
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:24 PM
To: 'mick_seaman@ieee.org'; CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1); 'Johnston, Dj'
Cc: 'LinkSec'
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

Mick,
 
I think your final statement is pretty important.  It isn't clear that we want each 'peg' to have its own MAC address as we do ports in a bridge.  This would be allocating MAC addresses to 'virtual' things again, which isn't a good idea.  If we treat the entity the roving client is talking to as an entity accessible via a shared medium we might be able to minimize the number of MAC addresses needed for 'virtual' things...

Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Seaman [mailto:mick_seaman@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:34 PM
To: 'CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)'; 'Johnston, Dj'
Cc: 'LinkSec'
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

 
Paul,
 
There seems to be a certain amount of overlap between the terms "an association", a "a secure association", the wireless primitive "associate",  and other operations that might be referred to as associations/bindings which I for one find a little confusing.
 
There are two reasonable definitions for a port - (1) a port is nothing but an MSAP or MILSAP - i.e. a MAC (Internal Layer Service Access Point) - i.e a local association/binding between a MAC (Internal Sublayer) Service Client and the MAC (internal Sublayer Service) Provider (2) a port is a name for or identification of a collection of Entities that are bound together and comprise at least one MSAP or MILSAP, and no more than one MILSAP that binds to a Bridge Relay Entity. I believe the latter is more useful, as it explains how the Port can always be given a MAC Address (the MAC address of an associated MSAP where higher layer Entities attach) while a MILSAP is not directly addressable and hence doesn't have to have a MAC Address bound to it. (I'll leave the definition of "a binding' out for now).
 
So just as in the wired world a Port can exist before a wire is plugged into it, and a Port can be added to a System on demand (like plugging a new card into the system backplane). A port (on a bridge, I can't speak for a standardized wireless AP) can certainly exist before any wireless primitive 'associate" occurs. It just has MAC status parameters (.1D Clause 6.4.2)MAC_Enabled and MAC_Operational FALSE. It can certainly be identified, by a MAC Address bound to an MSAP supported by the Port, and can support higher layer entities (like an IP station) above that MSAP.
 
So the questions for roving (I use the term to avoid suggesting that anything is going to move from the point of view of IP, or that there is any telephony technology involved) appear to me to be as follows ( I assume that the roving station - the rover - can receive from the AP that it is about to rove to - I'll call this AP "the peg" and I am going to assume that it behaves exactly like a standard bridge - 'cause I can't speak for standardized APs):
 
a) What entity does the peg use to transmit advertisments that the rover receives and uses to make the decision to rove to the peg (to peg out)
 
which is closely tied to:
 
b) when does the wireless port appear/when is it and the resources (counters/records etc) created on the wireless bridge
 
and
 
c) what is the address used for advertisments.
 
I thought that were are 3 possible sets of answers to the above questions that coherently preserve network and network management behavior, however the following seems much the best as it avoids having a number of rovers contend for the same port.
 
Set 1
--------
 
a. Advertisements do not come from the port on the peg, but from a distinct higher layer entity on the peg. They are destination addressed to a group MAC address, of the type that is filtered by bridges and carry a source MAC address assigned to the higher layer entity in the peg. It is a complete mistake for the roamer (and for any bridge that might confuse the advertisments with the existence of a shared media link of the ordinary type) to learn this source address, and we should make sure that this is clear - using an address in this way (not port associated) runs the risk of fouling up accessibility of the address. There is no point in attempting to send a frame through the bridge network to this address. The advertisment should contain a system address for the peg - preferably as an IP address plus port number - which can be used by the rover through its current association.
 
b. The rover contacts the peg through the IP address in the advertisment, using its current connection through another AP, and the peg creates the port or allocates an existing port specifically for this rover with parameters supplied by the rover (if the rover doesn't peg out soon the peg will withdraw the port, destroy it or use it for another rover).
 
c. The rover associates with the port and can receive further parameters and conduct any remaining dialogue through the uncontrolled port necessary to gaining access through the controlled/authorized port. In particular the uncontrolled port is used for the rover to send its first "I've arrived message".
 
Mick
 
 
If the rover can both send and receive messages to and from the peg as if it were using shared media before forming an insecure one-to-one association with the peg then the above answers might change.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:39 AM
To: 'Johnston, Dj'; mick_seaman@ieee.org
Cc: LinkSec
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

 
So the big question for me is, how do we deal with the port in the roaming wireless world if it needs to be instantiated before the association actually exists?   Does the port you are talking about fit this model?  In other words, before I roam to the new AP, the association doesn't exist yet, so neither does the port.   How do I create it before the association takes place, so I can quickly open the controlled port part when the supplicant finally does show up and associate?   This is the pre-auth problem...
 
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnston, Dj [mailto:dj.johnston@intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:40 PM
To: mick_seaman@ieee.org
Cc: LinkSec
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

Mick,
I think that is exactly what I'm proposing for the Handoff group. 2 entities, one on the controlled port and one on the uncontrolled port. They may actually be the same entity with an attachment to both LSAPs, that is TBD.
 
The reasoning is that it benefits from all the goodness that EAPoL benefits from. 802 Media independence and a clear definition of the security state of the system (port open/ port closed).
 
In my model, it would be a policy decision as to what information or services were available on which port. Obviously some information would need to be secured and some information, such as say service advertisments ("Come to my base station, Cheap bandwidth here!") would be better unsecured and available expediently.
 
The answer to the question of whether we can retrofit such a clean architecture into 802[11] is I believe 'yes' and yes its definition should be orthogonal to linksec. If it is not possible, watch the handoff group crash and burn :-).
 
Regards,
DJ
 

David Johnston
Intel Corporation
Chair, IEEE 802 Handoff ECSG

Email : dj.johnston@intel.com
Tel   : 503 380 5578 (Mobile)
Tel   : 503 264 3855 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Seaman [mailto:mick_seaman@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:02 AM
To: 'LinkSec'
Subject: RE: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

The general solution to this class of issues seems fairly clear. Provide/define a protocol entity that attaches to the/an Uncontrolled Port that is providing the attachment point for the roving station.
 
Apart from the fact that that entity appears to need to be able to read the current status of the Authorized/Controlled Port (really as an optimization so that it doesn't have to conduct its own further checks to guide its behavior - another and possibly better solution might be to partition the overall functionality between such an entity and a companion one that ataches to the Authorized Port, or to define an entity which attaches to both), its definition ought to be orthogonal to LinkSec.
 
Clearly with a roving type technology where ports come and go an association (also quite properly known as a Port) needs to be in place for such an entity to communicate with the roving station. That association doesn't have to be secure however.
 
 
Wired world:
 
Uncontrolled     Authorized
  Port  \      /    Port (secured association)
         \    /
          SecY
           |
         Port (lower MSAP)
                      |
 
Unwired world:
 
Uncontrolled     Authorized
  Port  \      /    Port
         \    /
          SecY
           |
         Association
                      |
 
 
Mick
 
[I'm not saying that one can retrofit such a clean architecture to 802.11 as currently defined.]
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-linksec@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Dolors Sala
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:08 AM
To: LinkSec
Cc: Johnston, Dj
Subject: [LinkSec] updated handoff presentation

On Behalv of Dave Johnston: