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Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

Hi Vishnu and Gaurang,

 

Group addressed frames are data frames or MMPDUs. The Initial Control frame does not belong to group addressed frames. So I think there is no confusion.

 

I have concerns on adding the following bullet.

-       [10039][10434][12813]If any non-AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true that is associated with an AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true is operating in EMLSR mode, the affiliated (non-MLO) upper MAC sublayer functions of the AP MLD (5.1.5.1 General ) served for the EMLSR links shall buffer all non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs that arrive via the DS and deliver the non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs following the rules defined in 35.3.15 (Multi-link group addressed frame delivery and reception).

Actually there are no behavior changes at AP side specifically for EMLSR. What we need is to describe non-AP side behavior for EMLSR.

 

BR,

 

Xiangxin Gu

Communication Standards Devision

 

 

From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2022 12:23 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

The confusion on the call was whether the initial Control frame needs to be individually addressed. Since that is not the intention for the text you proposed (i.e., the initial Control frame need not be individually addressed), my suggestion is to clarify that when the AP intends to initiate individually addressed frame exchanges it initiates those frame exchanges with an initial Control frame.

 

We want to say ‘if AP intends to x, it shall do y …’. AP’s intention to do something is separate from whether it is eventually successful.  So, I am not able to follow your concern with the text I suggested.

 

With the changes that you are suggesting, I don’t see the confusion from the call being resolved.

 

Thanks,

Gaurang

 

From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2022 8:43 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi Gaurang,

 

I am fine with the suggested changes except for the following: “An AP affiliated with the AP MLD that intends to exchange individually addressed frames with the non-AP MLD on one of the EMLSR links shall begin the frame exchanges by …”. I am not sure if “intends to exchange” would be accurate. Note that the later text reads: “shall begin the frame exchanges by ..”, i.e., the frame exchange is being initiated (whether it will be successful or not is different question). So I think it is more appropriate to just say: “An AP affiliated with the AP MLD initiates individually addressed frame exchanges the non-AP MLD on one of the EMLSR links shall begin the frame exchanges by …”. The discussion on the call was slightly different and was related to including the term “individually addressed” if I am not wrong.

 

Hi Shubhodeep,

 

I am fine with the suggested change: “on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of group addressed frames”

I also plan to add the changes suggested by Gaurang, as indicated in his email with Ben.

 

Regarding the third point,

  • As per my understanding and discussion with others, beacon frames are also included in the list of group addressed frames. This is why we do not specifically mention beacons here. The scheme is designed to provide switching delay before all beacons, not just DTIM beacons. [I will have to do some digging if you want me to find the relevant spec text].
  • For buffered group-addressed frames that are delivered after DTIM beacon, the “switching delay protection” is provided before the start of the DTIM beacon.
  • Regarding the last point of whether we need to define a new type of EMLSR delay that unfortunately is beyond the scope of this CR document, and it is not clear to me why such a delay would be different from the delay to transition from receiving/transmitting operation on one link to listening operation on all links. Do you recommend providing a protection period of “EMLSR padding delay + EMLSR transition delay”? Or defining a new delay all together?

 

Regards,

Vishnu

 

From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <00000c144a46bcee-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2022 9:13 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

Thanks for preparing the contribution. Please see comments below.

 

CID 13587: As noted, the EMLSR architecture does not preclude a non-AP from listening on the other EMLSR links while it is receiving group addressed frames on one of the EMLSR links. So, the following can be added: 

-                      [13587]A non-AP MLD that is operating in EMLSR mode may receive group addressed frame(s) on a link at the scheduled group addressed frame transmission time on that link. A non-AP MLD that is operating in EMLSR mode that used a link to receive the group addressed frame(s) shall return to the listening operation on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of group addressed frames after the end of the group addressed frame(s) or, if the group addressed frame(s) include non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs, upon receiving an indication from the AP MLD that there is no more buffered non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs following the rules defined in 11.2.3.7 (Receive operation for STAs in PS mode).

One can further add the changes suggested by Gaurang to include a transition delay.

 

-                      [10039][10863][12726][12728][12892][13588][13813] If an AP MLD expects that a STA affiliated with a non-AP MLD operating in an EMLSR link is expected to receive those group addressed MPDUs, an AP affiliated with the AP MLD that is operating on another EMLSR link should ensure the following:

·                      frame exchanges initiated with another STA affiliated with the non-AP MLD which is associated with the AP ends at least an EMLSR transition delay, indicated in the EMLSR Transition Delay subfield, before the group addressed MPDU reception by the STA.

 

 

  • Is the scheme designed to provide a switching delay for all beacons or only for group addressed frames immediately following a DTIM beacon? If yes, why is this necessary only for group addressed frames but not normal beacons? Is this required because group addressed frames might be transmitted in higher frame formats (e.g. EHT, EHT MU or EHT MU with RU) and MCSs compared to normal beacons? 
  • Furthermore, even if the group addressed frame is an EHT PPDU, it is preceded by an DTIM beacon. So, the EMLSR STA on that link may already be receiving the beacon. In that case, why is there a need for an additional transition delay OR is the transition delay between the end of frame exchange on one link and the start of the DTIM beacon on the other link?
  • The EMLSR transition delay (as it is currently defined) is the delay between the end of frame exchanges on one link and listen operation on all EMLSR links. However, in the above proposal, the same delay is being applied between frame exchanges on one link and Rx on another link. These two are different transitions and can potentially require different delays.

 

Regards,

Shubho

 

 

On Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 06:36, Benjamin Rolfe <ben@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks that is quite clear now!

Ben

From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:28 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Ben,

 

The intention is to apply the same delay (EMLSR transition delay) to both cases. Does the following answer your question?

 

Thanks,

Gaurang

 

From: Benjamin Rolfe <ben@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 2:26 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi All,

Potentially this question has already been covered, but in the response [13587], "following the reception of an indication from the AP MLD that there is no more boffered non-GCR-SP..." in the first part we define (precisely?) what "following" means (duration of EMLSR transition delay). Do you mean to apply the same duration to the second condition, or is "following" meaning some other (hopefully bounded) delay value?

Thanks

Ben

 

 

From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:48 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

Pls see the suggested change for CID 13587 as I mentioned during the call.

 

Also, there regarding the term ‘individually addressed’ in the resolution for CID 10434, I suggest making the following change to make the intention clear.

 

I believe you also made live changes during the call for CID 10434. Could you please upload the version with those changes?

 

Thanks,

Gaurang

 

 

From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:34 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Dear all,

 

Thank you for discussion during the meeting on CR doc 1335 (Group addressed frame reception in EMLSR/NSTR). I summarize below the comments discussed on the call, and I look forward to additional feedback which was not discussed during the meeting:

·         CIDs 10434, 12813: The text “individually addressed frame exchanges“ may be inaccurate. The text “affiliated (non-MLO) upper MAC sublayer functions of the AP MLD (5.1.5.1 General ) served for the EMLSR links” is controversial. Recommended to delete: “non-AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true that is associated with an AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true” to simplify text.

·         CID 13587: Change the bullet to ensure that it doesn’t preclude listening operation on other EMLSR links when receiving group-addressed frames on one link, i.e., the return to listening operation is only for the STA that was receiving group-addressed frames. Also suggested to add that the return to listening is after the EMLSR transition delay.

 

Kindly let me know if I missed any of the comments on call. I would also appreciate if you can share feedback on CIDs which were not discussed during the meeting: [10039][10863][12726][12728][12892][13588][13813] and [10008][11594][13589].

 

Regards,

Vishnu

 

From: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 2:28 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Xiangxin,

 

Please find my responses inline.

 

Regards,

Vishnu

 

From: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 9:14 PM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

Thanks for your response. I make inline reply.

 

BR,

 

Xiangxin Gu

Communication Standards Devision

 

 

From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:19 AM
To: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Xiangxin,

 

Thank you for your comments and initiating the discussion.

  1. I personally don’t have a very strong opinion about this, i.e., is a capability indication by the AP MLD necessary or not. Others had suggested that a capability indication should be used during offline discussions. Without a capability indication, it may be unclear what the AP operation will be if an indication of group-link is provided by an EMLSR non-AP MLD, i.e., will it take action based on it or not.

[// Xiangxin Gu] If this mechanism is incorporated, there is no reason for an AP MLD not to support this because it make the AP MLD easier to operating with EMLSR/EMLMR mode. So I don’t understand why the capability indication is needed.

[VR] Since there are conflicting opinions on this, let us discuss this during the call to see what the group generally prefers. I would be happy to also collect other opinions of this as a response here to see which approach is more preferred.

 

  1. Beacon frames are also included in the list of group addressed frames. So even if no services are running over group-addressed data frames, the proposed mechanism is still required for protecting beacon frames. Can you elaborate further what case you are referring to and what is your suggestion?

[// Xiangxin Gu] Agree.

Further, an indication on whether there is services over group addressed frames other than Beacon frames at non-AP MLD side is suggested. Because it is gainful that the duration of transmission of these frames doesn’t need to be kept away from EML frame exchanges if no such services at non-AP MLD side. These frames occupy much more time than Beacon frame.

Moreover, for EMLMR, in case some RF chains are kept at the STAs on other links during the EML frame exchange, there is no need for EML frame exchanges to be away from the duration of transmission of group addressed frames on any links. For example, a multi-radio non-AP MLD with 3 affiliated STA1 and STA 2 and STA 3 setups link 1 and 2 and link 3 respectively with AP 1 and AP2 and AP3 affiliated with an AP MLD. All STAs support 2 SS. The non-AP MLD supports EMLMR mode, and has enabled EMLMR mode with 4 SS on link 1 and link 2 and link 3. The EMLMR mode does not use all RF chains of the non-AP MLD.

[VR] Regarding the indication of group addressed frame services, I see your point, But I think the issue may be that group addressed management frames are also buffered and transmitted after the DTIM beacon, and they can be meant for all non-AP MLDs. So even if a non-AP MLD is not subscribed to a group addressed service, it may want to decode the group addressed frames. Note that as of now there is no indication in TIM regarding whether the buffered group-addressed frames are data frames or management frames (there are some CIDs on that topic), so the non-AP MLD may not know if it can stop decoding.

Since many things regarding EMLMR are yet unclear, I removed the clause corresponding to EMLMR from the document. There are other CIDs for EMLMR section that can be used to extend this procedure for EMLMR. I encourage you to bring this idea up during the resolution of those CIDs.

 

  1. This point was also in debate in offline discussions, and two people suggested that the indication should be in a new EHT action frame. One of the reason is also that the indication of group link can be provided after switch to EMLSR mode, at any time. So reusing EML Operating Mode Notification frame might in fact reduce flexibility that the indication can only be provided when the switch to EMLSR mode happens. The EML Operating Mode Notification frame also has a response frame, while for this feature we don’t require a response frame from AP MLD. We can also have an offline discussion on this if you want a more detailed discussion.

[// Xiangxin Gu] Yes, we have to make decision for the tradeoff. Actually I doubt such flexibility make sense in practice.

[VR] Since there are conflicting opinions on this, let us discuss this during the call to see what the group generally prefers, I would be happy to also collect other opinions of this as a response here to preemptively see which option is more preferred.

 

Regards,

Vishnu

 

From: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:41 AM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Vishnu,

 

Thanks for the contribution document 22/1335r0, I have concerns:

  1. With this mechanism, the AP MLD get easier to operating with EMLSR/EMLMR mode. So it is unreasonable to have a capability item on this.
  2. The solution doesn’t cover the case that there is no services running over group addressed frames at non-AP MLD side.
  3. It’s better to put the information in EML Operating Notification frame, which consumes less steps and less signal overhead. I don’t think it’s a good idea to utilize an inefficient way just because we want to cover NSTR case. Actually no CID is related to NSTR. We can have a separate discussion on NSTR.

 

BR,

 

Xiangxin Gu

Communication Standards Devision

 

 

From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2022 11:18 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Hi Alfred,

 

Could you kindly add the following document to the MAC queue. It resolves 13 CIDs.

12-Aug-2022 ET

2022

1335

0

TGbe

CR for CIDs related to Group-addressed frame Reception in EMLSR/NSTR

Vishnu Ratnam (Samsung)

12-Aug-2022 11:13:05 ET

Download

 

In addition, I have uploaded the 1201r1 which is a PDT (in place of 1201r0 which was a ppt). As discussed, could you kindly move that document to the MAC Comment Resolution queue from the contribution queue? It resolves 1 CID.

12-Aug-2022 ET

2022

1201

1

TGbe

ML traffic indication using A-control

Vishnu Ratnam (Samsung)

12-Aug-2022 11:04:33 ET

Download

 

Thanking you,

Vishnu

 

From: Edward Au <edward.ks.au@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2022 6:52 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted

 

Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Dear Alfred and all,

 

Revision 16 of the comment spreadsheet is posted:

 

This version updated the status of selected CIDs after the motions on Wednesday, together with a few TTT assignments and PoC reassignment.

 

Regards,
Edward

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