Thanks Minyoung and Yongho,
Would you be fine with the following change? (since listen operation involves more than performing CCA):
"After using a link to receive the group addressed frame(s), STAs affiliated with the non-AP MLD which operate on the EMLSR links but were not able to perform listen operation during the reception of the group address frames shall return to the listen operation."
Regards,
Vishnu
From: Minyoung Park <mpark.ieee@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 7:50 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
I'm fine with Yongho's suggestion.
Regards,
Minyoung
On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 9:27 PM Yongho Seok <yongho.seok@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Vishnu,
Regarding the green text, "interrupted" is a little ambiguous since an interrupt can be interpreted as various meanings.
Can you change the following sentence
"After using a link to receive the group addressed frame(s), the non-AP MLD shall return to the listening operation on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of the group addressed frames."
to
"After using a link to receive the group addressed frame(s), STAs(s) affiliated with the non-AP MLD which operates on the EMLSR links but was not able to perform the CCA during the reception of the group address frames shall return to the listen operation."
Thanks,
Yongho
2022년 9월 21일 (수) 오전 11:05, Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Hi Shubhodeep,
If I understand correctly, your intention is that reception of non-HT PPDU beacon frames is potentially possible for an EMLSR device during listen operation. Correspondingly an EMLSR transition delay is not required after the end of the frame exchange sequence. Note that the EMLSR transition delay is however still required after the group-addressed data and management frames sent after the DTIM beacon. It will also be required for HT PPDU beacons and, for some implementations of EMLSR, it may be needed for all beacons it receives as well. So, as suggested, I have changed the sentence as:
- [13587]The non-AP MLD may receive group addressed frame(s) on a link at the scheduled group addressed frame transmission time on that link. After using a link to receive the group addressed frame(s), the non-AP MLD shall return to the listening operation on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of the group addressed frames. The return to listening operation shall be a duration of the EMLSR transition delay, indicated in the EMLSR Transition Delay subfield, following the end of the group addressed frame(s) or, if the group addressed frame(s) include non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs, a duration of the EMLSR transition delay, indicated in the EMLSR Transition Delay subfield, following the reception of an indication from the AP MLD that there is no more buffered non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs following the rules defined in 11.2.3.7 (Receive operation for STAs in PS mode).
I would appreciate any further offline feedback from other members as well, if any, so that we can make progress on this important topic which already has been presented twice. The latest version is:
21-Sep-2022 ET
2022
1335
3
TGbe
CR for CIDs related to Group-addressed frame Reception in EMLSR/NSTR
Vishnu Ratnam (Samsung)
21-Sep-2022 13:56:07 ET
Regards,
Vishnu
From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <shubhodeep.adhikari@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2022 1:09 AM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
The cited clause is applicable for frame exchanges (i.e. tx/rx with any applicable NSS/MCS/PPDU format) that follow an initial control frame.
From the perspective of the capability of a non-AP in EMLSR mode, a beacon reception in non-HT format is no different from listening on EMLSR links for MU-RTS/BSRP in non-HT format or doing CCA. These latter cases i.e. listening for MU-RTS/BSRP/CCA do not have any transition delay at their end; so why should a beacon-only reception require a transition delay or any other special handling?
That is why when I initially read the proposal, I thought it is to support group addressed data frames, as unlike beacons these can be transmitted in higher frame formats and MCSs, and so may require a transition delay. Can you not restrict your proposal to include only such frames?
Note that the time sequence [Tx/Rx between non-AP in EMLSR mode and AP on one EMLSR Link] ====> [Beacon reception on a different EMLSR link] may still require a delay in some EMLSR architectures. So, my concern is only with [Beacon reception on one EMLSR link ] ====> [Listen on all EMLSR links]
Regards,
Shubho
On Wed, 7 Sept 2022 at 01:05, Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Shubho,
Thank you for the question. However I think your question is not specific to group addressed frames but is rather applicable to reception of any frame on an EMLSR link. Kindly note that the baseline spec has the following bullet:
“The non-AP MLD shall be switched back to the listening operation on the EMLSR links after the time indicated in the EMLSR Transition Delay subfield of the EML Capabilities subfield in the Common Info field of the Basic Multi-Link element if any of the following conditions is met and this is defined as the end of the frame exchanges:”
The same behavior is also applicable for reception of group-addressed frames. Therefore the proposed changes include the EMLSR transition delay after the end of the group-addressed frame transmission time. I hope that answers the question?
Regards,
Vishnu
From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <shubhodeep.adhikari@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2022 7:59 AM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
Thanks for the clarifications.
So, the current proposal covers mechanisms to enable a non-AP in EMLSR mode to receive any group addressed frames, including only beacons.
But then, a non-AP in EMLSR mode can already do CCA as well as receive MU-RTS/BSRP in non-HT (or non-HT dup) format on all EMLSR links. In that case, if it receives a beacon in non-HT format, why does it need a transition delay after receiving a beacon on one link to being in listen mode on all EMLSR links?
Regards,
Shubho
On Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 21:13, Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Gaurang,
I am fine with the suggested changes except for the following: “An AP affiliated with the AP MLD that intends to exchange individually addressed frames with the non-AP MLD on one of the EMLSR links shall begin the frame exchanges by …”. I am not sure if “intends to exchange” would be accurate. Note that the later text reads: “shall begin the frame exchanges by ..”, i.e., the frame exchange is being initiated (whether it will be successful or not is different question). So I think it is more appropriate to just say: “An AP affiliated with the AP MLD initiates individually addressed frame exchanges the non-AP MLD on one of the EMLSR links shall begin the frame exchanges by …”. The discussion on the call was slightly different and was related to including the term “individually addressed” if I am not wrong.
Hi Shubhodeep,
I am fine with the suggested change: “on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of group addressed frames”
I also plan to add the changes suggested by Gaurang, as indicated in his email with Ben.
Regarding the third point,
- As per my understanding and discussion with others, beacon frames are also included in the list of group addressed frames. This is why we do not specifically mention beacons here. The scheme is designed to provide switching delay before all beacons, not just DTIM beacons. [I will have to do some digging if you want me to find the relevant spec text].
- For buffered group-addressed frames that are delivered after DTIM beacon, the “switching delay protection” is provided before the start of the DTIM beacon.
- Regarding the last point of whether we need to define a new type of EMLSR delay that unfortunately is beyond the scope of this CR document, and it is not clear to me why such a delay would be different from the delay to transition from receiving/transmitting operation on one link to listening operation on all links. Do you recommend providing a protection period of “EMLSR padding delay + EMLSR transition delay”? Or defining a new delay all together?
Regards,
Vishnu
From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <00000c144a46bcee-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2022 9:13 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
Thanks for preparing the contribution. Please see comments below.
CID 13587: As noted, the EMLSR architecture does not preclude a non-AP from listening on the other EMLSR links while it is receiving group addressed frames on one of the EMLSR links. So, the following can be added:
- [13587]A non-AP MLD that is operating in EMLSR mode may receive group addressed frame(s) on a link at the scheduled group addressed frame transmission time on that link. A non-AP MLD that is operating in EMLSR mode that used a link to receive the group addressed frame(s) shall return to the listening operation on all the EMLSR links on which listening operation was interrupted due to the reception of group addressed frames after the end of the group addressed frame(s) or, if the group addressed frame(s) include non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs, upon receiving an indication from the AP MLD that there is no more buffered non-GCR-SP group addressed BUs following the rules defined in 11.2.3.7 (Receive operation for STAs in PS mode).
One can further add the changes suggested by Gaurang to include a transition delay.
- [10039][10863][12726][12728][12892][13588][13813] If an AP MLD expects that a STA affiliated with a non-AP MLD operating in an EMLSR link is expected to receive those group addressed MPDUs, an AP affiliated with the AP MLD that is operating on another EMLSR link should ensure the following:
· frame exchanges initiated with another STA affiliated with the non-AP MLD which is associated with the AP ends at least an EMLSR transition delay, indicated in the EMLSR Transition Delay subfield, before the group addressed MPDU reception by the STA.
- Is the scheme designed to provide a switching delay for all beacons or only for group addressed frames immediately following a DTIM beacon? If yes, why is this necessary only for group addressed frames but not normal beacons? Is this required because group addressed frames might be transmitted in higher frame formats (e.g. EHT, EHT MU or EHT MU with RU) and MCSs compared to normal beacons?
- Furthermore, even if the group addressed frame is an EHT PPDU, it is preceded by an DTIM beacon. So, the EMLSR STA on that link may already be receiving the beacon. In that case, why is there a need for an additional transition delay OR is the transition delay between the end of frame exchange on one link and the start of the DTIM beacon on the other link?
- The EMLSR transition delay (as it is currently defined) is the delay between the end of frame exchanges on one link and listen operation on all EMLSR links. However, in the above proposal, the same delay is being applied between frame exchanges on one link and Rx on another link. These two are different transitions and can potentially require different delays.
Regards,
Shubho
On Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 06:36, Benjamin Rolfe <ben@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks that is quite clear now!
Ben
From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:28 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Ben,
The intention is to apply the same delay (EMLSR transition delay) to both cases. Does the following answer your question?
Thanks,
Gaurang
From: Benjamin Rolfe <ben@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 2:26 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.
Hi All,
Potentially this question has already been covered, but in the response [13587], "following the reception of an indication from the AP MLD that there is no more boffered non-GCR-SP..." in the first part we define (precisely?) what "following" means (duration of EMLSR transition delay). Do you mean to apply the same duration to the second condition, or is "following" meaning some other (hopefully bounded) delay value?
Thanks
Ben
From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:48 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
Pls see the suggested change for CID 13587 as I mentioned during the call.
Also, there regarding the term ‘individually addressed’ in the resolution for CID 10434, I suggest making the following change to make the intention clear.
I believe you also made live changes during the call for CID 10434. Could you please upload the version with those changes?
Thanks,
Gaurang
From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:34 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.
Dear all,
Thank you for discussion during the meeting on CR doc 1335 (Group addressed frame reception in EMLSR/NSTR). I summarize below the comments discussed on the call, and I look forward to additional feedback which was not discussed during the meeting:
· CIDs 10434, 12813: The text “individually addressed frame exchanges“ may be inaccurate. The text “affiliated (non-MLO) upper MAC sublayer functions of the AP MLD (5.1.5.1 General ) served for the EMLSR links” is controversial. Recommended to delete: “non-AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true that is associated with an AP MLD with dot11EHTEMLSROptionImplemented equal to true” to simplify text.
· CID 13587: Change the bullet to ensure that it doesn’t preclude listening operation on other EMLSR links when receiving group-addressed frames on one link, i.e., the return to listening operation is only for the STA that was receiving group-addressed frames. Also suggested to add that the return to listening is after the EMLSR transition delay.
Kindly let me know if I missed any of the comments on call. I would also appreciate if you can share feedback on CIDs which were not discussed during the meeting: [10039][10863][12726][12728][12892][13588][13813] and [10008][11594][13589].
Regards,
Vishnu
From: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 2:28 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Xiangxin,
Please find my responses inline.
Regards,
Vishnu
From: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 9:14 PM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
Thanks for your response. I make inline reply.
BR,
Xiangxin Gu
Communication Standards Devision
From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:19 AM
To: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Xiangxin,
Thank you for your comments and initiating the discussion.
- I personally don’t have a very strong opinion about this, i.e., is a capability indication by the AP MLD necessary or not. Others had suggested that a capability indication should be used during offline discussions. Without a capability indication, it may be unclear what the AP operation will be if an indication of group-link is provided by an EMLSR non-AP MLD, i.e., will it take action based on it or not.
[// Xiangxin Gu] If this mechanism is incorporated, there is no reason for an AP MLD not to support this because it make the AP MLD easier to operating with EMLSR/EMLMR mode. So I don’t understand why the capability indication is needed.
[VR] Since there are conflicting opinions on this, let us discuss this during the call to see what the group generally prefers. I would be happy to also collect other opinions of this as a response here to see which approach is more preferred.
- Beacon frames are also included in the list of group addressed frames. So even if no services are running over group-addressed data frames, the proposed mechanism is still required for protecting beacon frames. Can you elaborate further what case you are referring to and what is your suggestion?
[// Xiangxin Gu] Agree.
Further, an indication on whether there is services over group addressed frames other than Beacon frames at non-AP MLD side is suggested. Because it is gainful that the duration of transmission of these frames doesn’t need to be kept away from EML frame exchanges if no such services at non-AP MLD side. These frames occupy much more time than Beacon frame.
Moreover, for EMLMR, in case some RF chains are kept at the STAs on other links during the EML frame exchange, there is no need for EML frame exchanges to be away from the duration of transmission of group addressed frames on any links. For example, a multi-radio non-AP MLD with 3 affiliated STA1 and STA 2 and STA 3 setups link 1 and 2 and link 3 respectively with AP 1 and AP2 and AP3 affiliated with an AP MLD. All STAs support 2 SS. The non-AP MLD supports EMLMR mode, and has enabled EMLMR mode with 4 SS on link 1 and link 2 and link 3. The EMLMR mode does not use all RF chains of the non-AP MLD.
[VR] Regarding the indication of group addressed frame services, I see your point, But I think the issue may be that group addressed management frames are also buffered and transmitted after the DTIM beacon, and they can be meant for all non-AP MLDs. So even if a non-AP MLD is not subscribed to a group addressed service, it may want to decode the group addressed frames. Note that as of now there is no indication in TIM regarding whether the buffered group-addressed frames are data frames or management frames (there are some CIDs on that topic), so the non-AP MLD may not know if it can stop decoding.
Since many things regarding EMLMR are yet unclear, I removed the clause corresponding to EMLMR from the document. There are other CIDs for EMLMR section that can be used to extend this procedure for EMLMR. I encourage you to bring this idea up during the resolution of those CIDs.
- This point was also in debate in offline discussions, and two people suggested that the indication should be in a new EHT action frame. One of the reason is also that the indication of group link can be provided after switch to EMLSR mode, at any time. So reusing EML Operating Mode Notification frame might in fact reduce flexibility that the indication can only be provided when the switch to EMLSR mode happens. The EML Operating Mode Notification frame also has a response frame, while for this feature we don’t require a response frame from AP MLD. We can also have an offline discussion on this if you want a more detailed discussion.
[// Xiangxin Gu] Yes, we have to make decision for the tradeoff. Actually I doubt such flexibility make sense in practice.
[VR] Since there are conflicting opinions on this, let us discuss this during the call to see what the group generally prefers, I would be happy to also collect other opinions of this as a response here to preemptively see which option is more preferred.
Regards,
Vishnu
From: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <Xiangxin.Gu@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:41 AM
To: Vishnu Vardhan Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Vishnu,
Thanks for the contribution document 22/1335r0, I have concerns:
- With this mechanism, the AP MLD get easier to operating with EMLSR/EMLMR mode. So it is unreasonable to have a capability item on this.
- The solution doesn’t cover the case that there is no services running over group addressed frames at non-AP MLD side.
- It’s better to put the information in EML Operating Notification frame, which consumes less steps and less signal overhead. I don’t think it’s a good idea to utilize an inefficient way just because we want to cover NSTR case. Actually no CID is related to NSTR. We can have a separate discussion on NSTR.
BR,
Xiangxin Gu
Communication Standards Devision
From: Vishnu Ratnam <vishnu.r@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2022 11:18 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Hi Alfred,
Could you kindly add the following document to the MAC queue. It resolves 13 CIDs.
12-Aug-2022 ET
2022
1335
0
TGbe
CR for CIDs related to Group-addressed frame Reception in EMLSR/NSTR
Vishnu Ratnam (Samsung)
12-Aug-2022 11:13:05 ET
In addition, I have uploaded the 1201r1 which is a PDT (in place of 1201r0 which was a ppt). As discussed, could you kindly move that document to the MAC Comment Resolution queue from the contribution queue? It resolves 1 CID.
12-Aug-2022 ET
2022
1201
1
TGbe
ML traffic indication using A-control
Vishnu Ratnam (Samsung)
12-Aug-2022 11:04:33 ET
Thanking you,
Vishnu
From: Edward Au <edward.ks.au@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2022 6:52 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] Latest comment spreadsheet on LB266 (11be D2.0) posted
Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Dear Alfred and all,
Revision 16 of the comment spreadsheet is posted:
This version updated the status of selected CIDs after the motions on Wednesday, together with a few TTT assignments and PoC reassignment.
Regards,
Edward
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