Thread Links Date Links
Thread Prev Thread Next Thread Index Date Prev Date Next Date Index

Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答���: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

Hi Yunbo,

 

Whether to allow a STA’s RDG in TXS would be a different topic. I am sorry that I missed the chance to discuss on the resolution of 12421. However, I see clear value to support RDG in TXS. Some applications, such as VR, require immediate feedback. A STA can send a data frame with RDG to give the AP to transmit (application’s response) data back to the STA within the TXS shared TXOP. Similar situation also happens with mode 2. For the TXOP holder issue, of course AP is a TXOP holder of whole TXOP but because it shares the part of the TXOP with the STA, the STA can be treated as the TXOP holder of the shared TXOP period. Otherwise, the STA can not successively transmit PPDUs with SIFS separation without channel contention nor recover transmit errors within the shared TXOP.    

In the next round of comment submission, I would like to continue discussion on this issue.  

 

Best Regards,

Ronny

 

 

 

보낸 사람: Liyunbo
보낸 날짜: 2022년 11월 17일 목요일 오전 8:39
받는 사람: 용호 김; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
제목: 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi Ronny,

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I mentioned that there is a typo in the sentence of my previous email that you are discussing.

 

 

Actually, you are discussing a different topic. Whether a target STA could do RDG. Please see the resolution of CID 12421, the target STA shall not involve into RDG procedure. So the target STA neither a RD initiator, nor a RD responder. Also, the TXS target STA only share the TXOP, it is not the TXOP holder, the TXOP holder is still the AP.

 

 

12421

To improve efficiency of triggered TXOP Sharing feature, it's needed to allow reverse direction(RD) between non-AP STA and non-AP STA. In mode 1, RDG/More PPDU is used to indicate to terminate TXOP sharing. However, when RD is used this bit can be used for RD. More data bit or More data bit with RDG/More PPDU bit shall be used for this purpose.

Please make the following changes to allow reverse direction.

During the time allocated by an associated AP, the non-AP EHT STA may transmit non-TB PPDUs to the AP or another STA if the TXOP Sharing Mode subfield value is 2. The non-AP EHT STA may become a RD initiator during the TXOP sharing allocation. The non-AP EHT STA may transmit a QoS Data or QoS Null frame to an associated AP to terminate the allocated time, if both the More Data subfield in frame control field is 0 and the RDG/More PPDU subfield in CAS Control subfield of the HE variant HT Control field is equal to 0.

NOTE 1--For example, the other STA can be a peer STA of a peer-to-peer link.

During the time allocated by an associated AP, the non-AP EHT STA may transmit non-TB PPDUs and only to its associated AP if the TXOP Sharing Mode subfield value is 1. The non-AP EHT STA may become a RD initiator during the TXOP sharing allocation.

Resolution approved

REJECTED
There is a lack of motivation to support RDG in MU-RTS TXS, especially due to the potential complexity.

1) For mode 1, RDG is not needed. Since the original TXOP holder is an AP, we don’t need a non-AP STA to transfer the control to the AP through RDG, in addition, TXOP return also works.
2) For mode 2, if STA1 transfers the AP’s TXOP to STA2, it will cause a fairness issue especially as STA2 is not associated with the AP. Another problem is that when STA 2 is not associated with the AP, STA 2 may set the basic NAV by the AP, so it can not accept the STA 1’s RDG.

 

 

Regards,

Yunbo

 

发件人: 용호 김 [mailto:ronny1004@xxxxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年11月17日 7:29
收件人: Liyunbo <liyunbo@xxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi Yunbo,

 

In my previous email, I forgot to mention that RDG/More PPDU is not enough to indicate the termination of TXS as I commented in CID 12421. Since the STA can work as a RD initiator within the shared TXOP period, the STA can set RDG/More PPDU to 1 for RD not TXS termination.

 

Thanks,

Ronny  

 

보낸 사람: 용호 김
보낸 날짜: 2022년 11월 17일 목요일 오전 6:19
받는 사람: Liyunbo; STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
제목: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi Yunbo,

 

I think what you mentioned 'a target STA becomes a RDG responder' in your previous email is wrong: Once the STA is a target STA in MU-RTS TXS frame, the RDG/More PPDU subfield in HT/VHT/CAS Control field have the same meaning, which is return the allocated TXS time period to AP. A non-AP STA will be a TXS target STA and RDG responder at the same time.

A STA becomes a RDG initiator when it transmits a frame and during a TXS shared period, the STA transmits a frame.

When a STA is a target STA in MU-RTS TXS frame, because the STA can be a TXOP holder within the shared TXOP it can transmit a frame. Therefore the STA can be a RDG initiator not a RDG responder.

I have submitted related comment CID 12421.

12421

To improve efficiency of triggered TXOP Sharing feature, it's needed to allow reverse direction(RD) between non-AP STA and non-AP STA. In mode 1, RDG/More PPDU is used to indicate to terminate TXOP sharing. However, when RD is used this bit can be used for RD. More data bit or More data bit with RDG/More PPDU bit shall be used for this purpose.

Please make the following changes to allow reverse direction.

During the time allocated by an associated AP, the non-AP EHT STA may transmit non-TB PPDUs to the AP or another STA if the TXOP Sharing Mode subfield value is 2. The non-AP EHT STA may become a RD initiator during the TXOP sharing allocation. The non-AP EHT STA may transmit a QoS Data or QoS Null frame to an associated AP to terminate the allocated time, if both the More Data subfield in frame control field is 0 and the RDG/More PPDU subfield in CAS Control subfield of the HE variant HT Control field is equal to 0.

NOTE 1--For example, the other STA can be a peer STA of a peer-to-peer link.

During the time allocated by an associated AP, the non-AP EHT STA may transmit non-TB PPDUs and only to its associated AP if the TXOP Sharing Mode subfield value is 1. The non-AP EHT STA may become a RD initiator during the TXOP sharing allocation.

Best Regards,

Ronny Yongho Kim

 

보낸 사람: Liyunbo
보낸 날짜: 2022년 11월 16일 수요일 오후 10:50
받는 사람: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
제목: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi Alfred,

 

OK, I see that sentence. I didn’t notice the different variant of HT control type when I prepared the text in 35.2.1.2, my mistake. The signaling could works for all variants of HT Control. We should remove the condition in 35.2.1.2.  What’s your opinion?

 

 

Regards,

Yunbo

 

发件人: Alfred Asterjadhi [mailto:asterjadhi@xxxxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年11月16日 23:42
收件人: Liyunbo <liyunbo@xxxxxxxxxx>
抄送: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi Yunbo, 

 

Thanks for the follow up. Not according to the TGbe draft. Please check 35.2.1.2.

 

Regards,

 

Alfred

 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 7:36 AM Liyunbo <liyunbo@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Alfred,

 

Thanks for sharing your opinions. The meaning of RDG/More PPDU only depends on the role of the STA. Once the STA is a target STA in MU-RTS TXS frame, the RDG/More PPDU subfield in HT/VHT/CAS Control field have the same meaning, which is return the allocated TXS time period to AP. A non-AP STA will be a TXS target STA and RDG responder at the same time.

 

 

Regards,

Yunbo

 

 

发件人: Alfred Asterjadhi [mailto:asterjadhi@xxxxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年11月16日 23:29
收件人: Liyunbo <liyunbo@xxxxxxxxxx>
抄送: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] 答复: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

I dont think the comment is saying that those variants are forbidden. The comment is saying that the RDG/More PPDU subfield is found in the HT variant, the VHT variant and the CAS Control field but only when carried in the CAS control field is it used for the purposes of MU RTS TXS triggering (ref some subclause in 35), When carried in the HT/VT variants it continues having the legacy meaning.

 

Regards,

 

Alfred 

 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 7:19 AM Liyunbo <00001846a2e5e0c1-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Jinyoung,

 

Thanks for deferring this CID, and providing the explanation. But an EHT STA can support HT/VHT/HE/EHT PPDU, so no reason to disallow HT/VHT variant of HT control. So I don’t agree with the comment.

 

 

Regards,

Yunbo

 

发件人: Jinyoung Chun [mailto:jiny.chun@xxxxxxx]
发送时间: 2022年11月16日 19:37
收件人: STDS-802-11-TGBE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Liyunbo <liyunbo@xxxxxxxxxx>; aajami@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: [STDS-802-11-TGBE] RDG/More PPDU subfield (CID 11827)

 

Hi, Yunbo and Abdel,

RDG/More PPDU subfield is in HT control for HT/VHT variant, and in CAS control among A-Control for HE variant as below.

The target STA in a MU-RTS TXS Trigger frame, that is newly defined, is an EHT STA. So RDG/More PPDU subfield for the target STA in a MU-RTS TXS Trigger frame is present in the CAS Control subfield as below resolution.

CID

Commenter

PP.LL

Comment

Proposed Change

Resolution

11827

9.2.4.6.1

122.04

This new interpretation is only valid when the RDG/More PPDU bit is included in the CAS Control. Add a note to the table specifying that the Target STA case is present when bit is in CAS control as defined in x.y.

As in comment.

Revised

 

Agree with the commenter and just add note below.

For your information, other explain about the subfield is described in REVme as below: ‘In a non-HE HT STA, the RDG/More PPDU subfield and the AC Constraint subfield are present in the HTC field. In an HE STA, the RDG/More PPDU subfield and the AC Constraint subfield are present in the CAS Control subfield.’

 

To TGbe Editor:

Please add the note below the Table 9-17.

‘NOTE: RDG/More PPDU subfield for the target STA in a MU-RTS TXS Trigger frame is present in the CAS Control subfield (See 9.2.4.6a.7 (CAS Control)).

If you have other opinion, please let me know.

Best regards,

Jinyoung

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBE list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBE&A=1


 

--

Alfred Asterjadhi, PhD

IEEE802.11 TGbe Chair,

Qualcomm Technologies Inc.

Cell #:    +1 858 263 9445

Office #: +1 858 658 5302


 

--

Alfred Asterjadhi, PhD

IEEE802.11 TGbe Chair,

Qualcomm Technologies Inc.

Cell #:    +1 858 263 9445

Office #: +1 858 658 5302

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBE list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBE&A=1

 

 

 

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBE list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBE&A=1