Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

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Hi Rui,

Thank you for clarifications and questions.

I added my response inline below and see it, please.

Regards,

Dongguk.

From: Rui Yang [mailto:Rui.Yang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 6:11 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hi Dongguk,

Thank you for your prompt response and explanation to my questions.

Regarding my question 2) under Motion 1, I may not make myself clear. I didn’t ask reusing “NDPA and NDP procedure”, but reusing the NDPA frame. For VHT and HE, the procedure you proposed may make sense (but, still, VHT and HE use different NDPA frame, and VHT STA cannot understand HE NDPA frame.). For HT, it doesn’t. You are right about the existence of NDP announcement in the HT Control field. But it is still not the same as the NDPA frame defined in VHT and HE. Basically, my concern is about the combination of the sub-bullet “The detailed definition of the NDP Announcement frame is TBD” and the Note “This procedure can be applied to pre-HE STAs (i.e. not limited to HE/EHT STAs)”. The NDP announcement/control frames and procedures have been defined for HE and pre-HE. A new TBD NDPA frame may not work for those legacy devices (HE and pre-HE) unless some reserved bits are available for sensing.

[Dongguk Lim] Thanks for your clarification. I agree that the NDPA frame is not defined in HT and the specific NDPA according to each spec ( for example, VHT NDPA, HE NDPA, Ranging NDPA, and EHT NDPA) was defined. However, Regarding the NDPA for sensing, we have not discussed yet whether the NDPA frame defined in other spec is reused or redefined for sensing. Also, we can consider the various solution for defining the sensing NDPA. So, since we need further discussion about that, I added the text “~NDPA is TBD” and I think that this point commented by you is a good consideration when we discuss the NDPA later. In addition, we also consider WLAN sensing by using the legacy PHYs(11n, 11ac) which can be defined as pre-HE. and I think that It is possible to add the note because VHT supports NDPA. regarding the pre-HE, let’s discuss further.

Another clarification question about the Motion 1: In the second sub-bullet, you have “The transmitter shall …”. Which transmitter is it? Is it the same one as the one transmitting the NDPA frame? If so, I suggest change the first sub-bullet to “The measurement is initiated by a STA by transmitting an NDP Announcement frame.”

[Dongguk Lim] You are right. The NDPA and NDP are transmitted by the same STA which has the role of the transmitter. I will consider the modification taking into account your suggestion.

Regarding my first question for Motion 2, since 11az will be available after 11ax, the procedure defined in Motion can’t be used for 11ax. Right? Also, if you would like to apply this for EHT, an agreement at TGbe should be made.

[Dongguk Lim] Since 11az is the after 11ax, in my personal opinion, 11ax cannot support some specified features of11az. so, in order words, if an HE STA does not have the capability for ranging defined in 11az, this procedure cannot be used to an HE STA. even though 11bf supports the 11be as a baseline. I am not sure that we need the agreement with TGbe because 11bf is independent standardization. let’s consider together it.

By the way there is a typo in Motion 2 text: “11bf supports an Trigger/NDP-based measurement procedure in which…”

[Dongguk Lim] Thanks for your comment, I will fix it.

Best regards,

Ray

From: Dongguk Lim <dongguk.lim@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2021 9:31 PM
To: Rui Yang <Rui.Yang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: hg.cho@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hi Rui,

Thanks for your comments.

I add the responses inline.

I hope that it can be helpful to resolve your questions.

best regards,

Dongguk.

From: Rui Yang [mailto:Rui.Yang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2021 3:23 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hi Dongguk,

Thank you for proposing those motions. I have a few questions about these Motions. I was not able to attend the meeting when you presented 11-21/1015r2. I would apologize if they have been answered during the meeting.

Regarding Motion 1:

1) Is this motion for trigger or non-trigger based operation or both?

[Dongguk Lim] It can be applied to both cases.

2) In the Note of this motion, you have “This procedure can be applied to pre-HE STAs (i.e. not limited to HE/EHT STAs)”. Is your intention to reuse the NDPA frame and NDP for pre-HE STAs in the proposed measurement procedure? Also, since there is no NDPA frame defined in 11n, how this procedure can be achieved?

[Dongguk Lim] Yes, I consider the reuse of NDPA and NDP procedure. as you mentioned, the NDPA frame is not defined in 11n, but a similar PPDU was defined in 11n. This PPDU to solicit the NDP frame includes the NDP announcement subfield. please refer to the below definition and the clause 10.36 Null data PPDU (NDP) sounding in 11REVme. regarding this issue, we can further discuss in later because the detail of NDPA is not decided yet.

3) Could you explain what “validate the STA(s) participation” in the last sub-bullet means? In other words, what needs to be validated?

[Dongguk Lim] Since we can’t know exactly the STA(s) status that participates in the sensing measurement, it may need to check whether the STA(s) can participate or not. for example, even though the STA completes the sensing negotiation, it can be assume that the STA cannot participate in sensing due to interference or channel conditions.

Regarding Motion 2:

4) Can transmission of NDP from HE STAs be triggered? I believe there is not such a triggering procedure in the 11ax standard.

[Dongguk Lim] We consider the reuse of 11az in 11bf and this procedure that NDP is solicited by trigger frame is defined in 11az. so, I think that if HE STAs supports the 11az procedure, those STAs can use this procedure.

5) The procedure proposed in this motion is similar to implicit sounding, which is not covered in your contribution (11-21/1015r2). Could you confirm?

[Dongguk Lim] you are right. Actually, it is not included in the contents of my original slides. but, when I presented my slides, it was discussed. so, I modified my SP related to this motion based on the comment received when I presented and an offline discussion.

Best regards,

Ray

From: Dongguk Lim <dongguk.lim@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 4:15 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hi Solomon,

Thanks for your suggestion.

It looks good to me.

I'll modify the motion text as per your suggestion to remove the unclear things

best regards,

Dongguk

From: Solomon Trainin [mailto:strainin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 4:24 PM
To: dongguk.lim@xxxxxxx; STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hi Dongguk,

I suggest modifying as follows

• The transmitter(s) shall transmit an NDP SIFS after receiving the Trigger frame.

otherwise, the difference between NDPA and TF flows is unclear

Best regards,

Solomon Trainin

+972547885738

From: Dongguk Lim <dongguk.lim@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 5:08 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.

Hi Tony,

I’d like to run the two motions based on the passed SPs( SP#2(Results: 28Y/1N/9A) and SP#3(Results: 29Y/0N/7A)) in 11-21/1015r2

Please add the following Two motions to the TBbf agenda

Motion 1

• Move to add the following to 11bf SFD:

– 11bf supports an NDPA/NDP-based measurement procedure in which:

• The measurement is initiated by an NDP Announcement frame.

• The transmitter shall transmit an NDP SIFS after the NDP Announcement frame.

• The detailed definition of the NDP Announcement frame is TBD.

• The process to validate the STA(s) participation is TBD

– Note : This procedure can be applied to pre-HE STAs (i.e. not limited to HE/EHT STAs)

Motion 2

• Move to add the following to 11bf SFD

– 11bf supports an Trigger/NDP-based measurement procedure in which:

• A Trigger frame is used to solicit the NDP transmission(s).

• The transmitter(s) shall transmit an NDP SIFS after the Trigger frame.

• The detailed definition of the Trigger frame is TBD.

– Note : This procedure is for HE/EHT STAs. Supporting other STAs are TBD.

best regards,

Dongguk.

From: Hanxiao (Tony, WT Lab) [mailto:tony.hanxiao@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 5:54 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBF] Announcement: Motions for TGbf on August 17

Hello all,

This is an advanced notification that TGbf will run motions during the teleconference scheduled on

l August 17 (Tuesday), 10am - 12:00pm ET

Please refer to the document linked below for a preliminary list of all the motions (starting from slide 47) that will be run during the conference call:

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/20/11-20-1874-16-00bf-tgbf-motions-list.pptx

Best Regards : )

Tony Xiao Han

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