Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
Hello everyone,
I am a silent reader of this 10G EPON email trails.
Recently I see a lot of discussions going on about PIN vs APD.
Actually I am the author of the papers, no 4, no 6 and no 12 listed in page
7 of "3av_0611_chang_1.pdf".
If you need, I can calculate the theoretical limitation and the
theoretically achievable sensitivity values which depend on PD parameters
and active devices.
Best regards,
Moonsoo Park
CTO
OE Solutions America, Inc.
25 Mauchly, Suite 315
Irvine, CA 92618
Mobile: (949) 293-3297
Office Phone: (949) 727-3684
E-mail: mspark@oesolution.com
http://www.oesolution.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Hiroshi HAMANO [mailto:hamano.hiroshi@JP.FUJITSU.COM]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 11:04 PM
To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
Dear Dr. Parruck and Dr. Hajduczenia,
Thank you for your discussions for solving the PIN/APD issue. Perhaps I am
not an appropriate person to discuss, because
some PIN group member should be responsible. But I try some,
because my explanation, in my former E-mail, was perhaps
not good and misunderstood.
There is 8dB sensitivity difference between 10G PIN and APD,
including about 1-1.5dB E-FEC gain difference. It is the 10G
optics background and the main reason for the long PIN/APD battle.
Your discussions are ignoring this background and only driving
the PIN sensitivity close to APD, but I am afraid this approach
is not fruitful.
As for the power budget spec. lists, all the vendors carefully
investigated the tight B++ requirement and decided the spec. numbers
with their optics experts, who have huge production experience of
XFPs and other 10G transceivers. I believe they started their
assumption with the typical PIN-ROSA alone sensitivity of around
-21dBm@10-12, same as that Dr. Parruck has indicated in his E-mail,
and they decided, in the end, the ONU sensitivity spec. -20dBm with E-FEC.
They have no room to improve as long as they assume current PIN-ROSA
performance.
The following shows the PIN receiver sensitivity experimental results
on the page 7 of 3av_0611_Chang_1.pdf.
3 10Gb/s -19dBm PIN-HBT 1998
4 10Gb/s -20.4dBm PIN-HBT 1995
5 10Gb/s -22.4dBm PIN-HEMT 1996
6 10Gb/s -23.5dBm PIN-HEMT 1995
I do not know other reports so far breaking this record -23.5dBm,
and that means there were no big improvements for more than 10 years.
And also future 10G PIN-ROSA sensitivity improvement seems limited
unless there comes a drastic breakthrough.
Your discussions, requesting the PIN-ONU sensitivity lower, seem to me
that you are indirectly persuading the PIN group to give up PIN and
to choose APD, but I do not think it is acceptable for them.
This shows only my personal understanding, please ask some PIN group
member for clear answer.
Best regards,
Hiroshi Hamano
%% "Hajduczenia, Marek" <marek.hajduczenia@SIEMENS.COM>
%% Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
%% Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:36:22 +0100
>
> Dear Bidyut,
> That would be splendid since it would allow us to end the PIN/APD wars
with a single neat aggressive power budget which would satisfy everyone.
> The problem is that we seem to get not much closer to consensus than we
were during the last two meetings. I am not a PIN / APD expert but isn't it
possible to create a single proposal which could satisfy both camps and
allow the rest of the group to back up the proposal ?
> Forgive my ignorance if such a solution is impossible due to some obvious
reasons I am not aware of
>
> Marek Hajduczenia (141238)
> NOKIA SIEMENS Networks S.A., Portugal - R
> Rua Irm竢s Siemens, 1
> Ed. 1, Piso 1
> Alfragide
> 2720-093 Amadora
> Portugal
> * Marek.Hajduczenia@siemens.com
> http://www.marekhajduczenia.info/index.php
> (+351.21.416.7472 4+351.21.424.2082
> "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder,
> but when you do, it blows away your whole leg." - Bjarne Stroustrup
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bidyut Parruck [mailto:Bidyut@CORTINA-SYSTEMS.COM]
> Sent: quinta-feira, 30 de Agosto de 2007 19:17
> To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
>
> Hi Hamano-san,
>
> My apologies - I didn't look for the PIN-PD receivers in July. However
> in light of where we are with respect to power budget, the discussion
> is relevant and worth revisiting.
>
> Some of the same PIN-PD vendors, who claim RX sensitivity of -20 dBm
> for BER of 1x10E-3, publish datasheets showing -25 dBm for BER of
> 1x10E-3. If PIN-PD vendors could agree to a better sensitivity, we
> could all agree to one power budget. Could we hear from some of them
> if they are willing to move from -20 dBm?
>
> Bidyut
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hiroshi HAMANO [mailto:hamano.hiroshi@JP.FUJITSU.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:20 PM
> To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
>
> Dear Sirs,
>
> Thank you for discussing the power budget table in
> 3av_0705_takizawa_1.pdf.
>
> For your interest, I copied again the E-mail discussion with
> Dr.Effenberger below.
> You can also find it in the E-mail reflector archive.
>
> http://www.ieee802.org/3/10GEPON_study/email/msg00644.html
>
> Best regards,
> Hiroshi Hamano
>
> ------- Forwarded Message
> %% Hiroshi HAMANO <hamano.hiroshi@JP.FUJITSU.COM>
> %% Re: [8023-10GEPON] [POWER BUDGET] resolving differences over PIN
> vs. APD %% Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:48:35 +0900
>
> Dear Dr. Effenberger,
>
> I cannot understand why you say that there exists unfairness between
> PIN
>
> and APD sensitivities. I believe both the RX sensitivities are quite
> fair enough with regard to production feasibility.
> No such arguments arise among vendors here, because they always think
> about both receiver types seriously and check both budget tables.
> If the RX-type will be once decided, all the vendors have to put the one
>
> in production anyway, even though their RX preference is the other.
>
> If you think that PIN-RX sensitivity in our vendor summary looks
> conservative, same as Dr. Frank Chang thought that APD-RX looks so ---
> he pointed that out
> at the last Geneva meeting ---, I understand somewhat both of your
> feelings,
> considering such a tight Class B++ power budget.
> But please understand the 10G transceiver production facts, for
> instance, XFPs.
> It is not the laboratory experiments or single ROSA performance.
> Vendors also have to spend a lot care for product deviations, especially
>
> for ONU, to avoid yield which makes its cost jump up. Besides, as it
> is the specification of ONU sensitivity, additional unknown
> WDM filter loss onto the bare transceiver cannot be ignored, which
> Takizawa
> always comments on his power budget presentation.
> I once suggested that a slight change (0.5dB) for RX sensitivity, and
> got
> a strong booing from all the vendors.
> So, the vendors cannot change their RX sensitivities of both PINs and
> APDs
> at moment.
>
> Best regards,
> Hiroshi Hamano
>
> ---------------------
>
> %% Bidyut Parruck <Bidyut@CORTINA-SYSTEMS.COM>
> %% Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
> %% Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:59:41 -0700
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for clearly stating the issue. The datasheets I'm "casually
> > looking on the web" are from "major" vendors.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both examples I showed had a sensitivity of -21 dBm for BER of
> 1x10E-12.
> > I can understand 2-3 dB of margin - our current equations are using
> > 5 dB. I do understand, initially, this could increase the cost of
> PIN-PD.
> > But in the long run the same companies will innovate and bring the
> cost
> > down. I think we should revisit this subject.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Bidyut
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Frank Effenberger [mailto:feffenberger@HUAWEI.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:16 PM
> > To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
> >
> >
> >
> > All,
> >
> >
> >
> > The 1e-12 BER PIN sensitivity that is being used in the slide below
> > is -16 dBm.
> >
> > The slide says that the 1e-4 BER sensitivity is -19 dBm.
> >
> > The slide says that the 1e-3 BER sensitivity is -20 dBm.
> >
> >
> >
> > What Bidyut is noticing is that many receivers he is casually
> > looking
> at
> > on the web seem to have a much better sensitivity curve than what
> > this slide says. The typical sensitivity numbers are -20dBm, and
> > I'd
> believe
> > that the 'hard spec' would be about -18 dBm. I've been saying the
> same
> > thing for many months. But "team PIN" seems convinced on -16 dBm,
> > for reasons of economy and yield, I've been told. But that is a
> > matter of how aggressive you want to be with the specification....
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Frank E.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Bidyut Parruck [mailto:Bidyut@CORTINA-SYSTEMS.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:05 PM
> > To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ryan,
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure where the FEC numbers are baked in. Here's the slide 8
> from
> > 3av_0705_takizawa_1.pdf.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bidyut
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Ryan Hirth [mailto:ryan.hirth@TEKNOVUS.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:10 PM
> > To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
> >
> >
> >
> > Bidyut,
> >
> > The additional gain from operating at BER 10E-12 to 10E-3 in your
> > example is the FEC optical gain. You cannot increase the receiver
> > sensitivity and add gain for FEC since this would be adding in the
> same
> > gain factor twice.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Ryan Hirth
> >
> > Director of ASIC Engineering
> >
> > Teknovus Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Bidyut Parruck [mailto:Bidyut@CORTINA-SYSTEMS.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:31 PM
> > To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: [8023-10GEPON] PIN-PD Power Budget
> >
> >
> >
> > I have been looking at publicly available 10Gbps PON photodiode
> > datasheets from major suppliers. For the receiver sensitivity, they
> all
> > claim -21 dBm for BER of 1x10E-12. The typical characteristics curve
> > suggests a BER of 1x10E-3 for input power level of -25 dBm.
> >
> >
> >
> > With input BER of 1x10E-3, we can find FEC algorithms which would
> > provide output BER of 1x10E-12 or better. Excuse my ignorance of the
> > subject, but why can't we use -24 dBm as the receiver sensitivity
> > for PIN-PD receivers? That will give us an additional 4 dB.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here are some examples:
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------
> HIROSHI HAMANO Network Systems Labs.
> FUJITSU Labs. Ltd., Kawasaki, 211-8588 JAPAN
> TEL: +81-44-754-2641 FAX: +81-44-754-2640
> E-mail: hhlsi@flab.fujitsu.co.jp
> ---------------------------------------------
>
>
---
---------------------------------------------
HIROSHI HAMANO Network Systems Labs.
FUJITSU Labs. Ltd., Kawasaki, 211-8588 JAPAN
TEL: +81-44-754-2641 FAX: +81-44-754-2640
E-mail: hhlsi@flab.fujitsu.co.jp
---------------------------------------------